Has Arteta Truly Turned it Around?: Page 222 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Has Arteta Truly Turned it Around?

Burnwinter

Time travel is invented:

Average gooner: goes back in time to bid £40m + 2 on Luis Suárez then heads back further to prepare a divot of grass at the Stade de France so that Eto'o will trip after 18 minutes played of the Champions League final

AAStyle: goes back to 2017 and snipes the iPad out of Arteta's hand during the first home game of the league season

FEBravo

AAStyle- wrote:
And yet having served as Pep's Ipad holder may be the only reason why he is here.

I know this is getting thrown a lot as some sort of attempt at humour, but are there any actual pictures of Arteta holding Pep's iPad? Genuine question

KurtEisner

goon wrote:
See my response to Jones in the Auba thread.

I've always maintained 90% of football is about the players. Having ones that are good enough, that compliment each other and compliment the style of football you're trying to achieve. The hardest part of management is being able to build and achieve this in the short amount of time you're given, if you're lucky your predecessor will have done some of the work for you or in Arteta's case, you actually get given more time. This is a big part of what makes Klopp brilliant, and it's why he's drooling over Martinelli like a puppy, because he's tailor made for his football. It's also what made Ole such a disaster.

The other 10% that turns you from an 80 point also rans into a 90 point league title winners is on the coaching, man management etc - this is where I'm less convinced about Arteta. There's some good in terms of being able to "control" games, but the big concern is the lack of intensity that often plagues the side.

How has Arteta done on that front though? He's signed extremely talented players, but do they really fit the way he's trying to play football? What kind of football are we even trying to play? And Tomiyasu aside it's also not like we found some hidden gems here, maybe Ramsdale, but everyone knew about Ben White, Partey has played in plenty european finals and Odegaard was the football world's best known child prodigy.

Also, Klopp 's best signings at Dortmund were Ilkay Gündogan, who played at Nürnberg and cost like 7 million, Lewandowski who nobody had ever heard of and cost about 5 million, and Shinji Kagawa for some 2 million. He won the double and reached the CL final with the likes of Subotic, Marcel Schmelzer and Kevin fucking Großkreutz, who was genuinely never good enough to even play in the Bundesliga, let alone win it. Fucking James Milner and Jordan Henderson are regulars for him at Liverpool. So yeah, he does sign players who fit his style, but I think it's more important that all of his players are playing the best football of their career under him and for me that is what being a manager is about. To get the best out of the group of players you have. I'd argue signing the right players to compliment your team is what puts a manager over the top rather than the other way around.

KurtEisner

Burnwinter wrote:
@Kurt Yeah that's more or less my "Pep's Homunculus" theory of Arteta's failures of man management. Having a megalomaniac with an infinite budget as a role model may not have been ideal for Tet ...

I absolutely love that 😆

AAStyle

Burnwinter wrote:
Time travel is invented:

Average gooner: goes back in time to bid £40m + 2 on Luis Suárez then heads back further to prepare a divot of grass at the Stade de France so that Eto'o will trip after 18 minutes played of the Champions League final

AAStyle: goes back to 2017 and snipes the iPad out of Arteta's hand during the first home game of the league season

😆 😆 😆 I would do all of them and also go to the Pizzagate match and throw and entire pizza box to SAF

AAStyle

FEBravo wrote:
AAStyle- wrote:
And yet having served as Pep's Ipad holder may be the only reason why he is here.

I know this is getting thrown a lot as some sort of attempt at humour, but are there any actual pictures of Arteta holding Pep's iPad? Genuine question

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.manchestereveningnews.co.uk%2Fsport%2Ffootball%2Ffootball-news%2Fmikel-arteta-man-city-guardiola-15797457&psig=AOvVaw3_377yxfVrTDBMn6SptVPn&ust=1643121795900000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAsQjRxqFwoTCOiHiurPyvUCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAQ

Found it on page 1 on google images, I guess that with a more detailed search clearer pictures will be found

goon

Kurt Eisner wrote:
goon wrote:
See my response to Jones in the Auba thread.

I've always maintained 90% of football is about the players. Having ones that are good enough, that compliment each other and compliment the style of football you're trying to achieve. The hardest part of management is being able to build and achieve this in the short amount of time you're given, if you're lucky your predecessor will have done some of the work for you or in Arteta's case, you actually get given more time. This is a big part of what makes Klopp brilliant, and it's why he's drooling over Martinelli like a puppy, because he's tailor made for his football. It's also what made Ole such a disaster.

The other 10% that turns you from an 80 point also rans into a 90 point league title winners is on the coaching, man management etc - this is where I'm less convinced about Arteta. There's some good in terms of being able to "control" games, but the big concern is the lack of intensity that often plagues the side.

How has Arteta done on that front though? He's signed extremely talented players, but do they really fit the way he's trying to play football? What kind of football are we even trying to play? And Tomiyasu aside it's also not like we found some hidden gems here, maybe Ramsdale, but everyone knew about Ben White, Partey has played in plenty european finals and Odegaard was the football world's best known child prodigy.

Also, Klopp 's best signings at Dortmund were Ilkay Gündogan, who played at Nürnberg and cost like 7 million, Lewandowski who nobody had ever heard of and cost about 5 million, and Shinji Kagawa for some 2 million. He won the double and reached the CL final with the likes of Subotic, Marcel Schmelzer and Kevin fucking Großkreutz, who was genuinely never good enough to even play in the Bundesliga, let alone win it. Fucking James Milner and Jordan Henderson are regulars for him at Liverpool. So yeah, he does sign players who fit his style, but I think it's more important that all of his players are playing the best football of their career under him and for me that is what being a manager is about. To get the best out of the group of players you have. I'd argue signing the right players to compliment your team is what puts a manager over the top rather than the other way around.

It's not about finding gems, it's about finding good quality players who fit a system and that's exactly what Klopp did at Liverpool. Some were brilliant value like Salah, Mane and Roberton, others were expensive but perfect like Fabinho, VVD and Becker. Inevitably there will be one or two that are a waste, but by in large the vast majority of his signings were exactly what they needed. It's a massively important skill and Klopp is better at it than most as well as being a phenomenal coach.

As for us/Arteta. I love the makup of our first XI and the direction it's heading in and have not felt that way for a long time - it's as simple as that. We're a couple of good additions away from me being disinterested in the transfer market.

Qwiss

The difference is Klopp wouldn't have left the gaping hole in midfield that Arteta did. Nor would he banish his captain and main striker mid season over tardiness.

We made some decent signings last summer but as time goes I think its clear that they've been a bit over hyped and they weren't necessarily the correct signings for what we needed.

goon

Agree with the first sentence, but unless Klopp is waiting to join they're not irredeemable mistakes for me.

QuincyAbeyie

If that was the only difference between them I'd agree with that.

Big Willie

Burnwinter wrote:
Time travel is invented:

Average gooner: goes back in time to bid £40m + 2 on Luis Suárez then heads back further to prepare a divot of grass at the Stade de France so that Eto'o will trip after 18 minutes played of the Champions League final

AAStyle: goes back to 2017 and snipes the iPad out of Arteta's hand during the first home game of the league season

😆

Qwiss

goon wrote:
Agree with the first sentence, but unless Klopp is waiting to join they're not irredeemable mistakes for me.

Well we can sign a quality CM but I don't know what you are supposed to do with Artetas habit of falling out with players over minor issues.

mdgoonah41

what i keep coming back to with arteta is how much the standards at this club have fallen in the last 10 years.

a decade ago, we had 70 points in the league, finished 3rd (19 points back), we won our CL group (ahead of OM, olympiacos and dortmund) and got knocked out of the round of 16 by milan after losing the first leg 4-0, then almost completing that miracle comeback in the second leg. we got knocked out of the FA cup in the 5th round to sunderland.

no one was particularly happy with that season. we were bitching about wenger. judas left after that season for man united. people were absolutely furious. fans were questioning our ambition.

a decade later, we are talking about how optimistic we should be after finishing 8th in back to back premier league seasons.

like...what? wenger took us through the stadium transition with no budget, and we kept finishing top 4, making FA cup runs, and at least making it to the knockout stages of the CL, even though we then got thrashed and humiliated by barca or bayern every year. now we get knocked out of the FA cup early, and we finish fucking 8th in the league, and its nothing but excuses. people saying how shit our squad was the last 2 seasons, when far inferior squads finished ahead of us in the league. we fluked an FA cup run in arteta's first half season, and he was given the keys to the car, which he then proceeded to drive off a cliff and into the ocean. and now we are all drowning, and being told this is the start of something glorious. its borderline gaslighting.

we all wondered what would happen when wenger left. whats happened is that we've taken a massive nosedive, and i think a lot of people havent truly appreciated how fast and how drastic the nosedive was. arteta isnt even fit to lace up wenger's boots, and that includes decline phase wenger. seeing some of the excuses and rationalizations bandied about here makes me sick. imagine going back 15 years and telling us all that it makes sense that west ham finishes above us in the league. youd vomit if someone had told you that 15 years ago

AAStyle

This reflects what I feel. Complete and well thought post.

Coombs

Whatever Wenger was doing in his later years is basically irrelevant - the context has completely shifted and our squad was left in utter shambles during a time of nonstop transition and soaring transfer fees and wages.

If there are standards (and I'm not sure that's actually a thing), they have to be based on something, ideally on reality - the actual circumstances at play, not what might be, but what is. The Kroenkes have overseen a period of total chaos and relative degeneration at Arsenal, with Wenger and without. Arteta is not even remotely the problem - he may be a symptom, but the idea that his work is the primary factor holding Arsenal back is, in my opinion, wrong. If you disagree, that's where the difference of opinion lies - not where you are placing it in some mythical world of Platonic ideals.

Nobody here wants Arsenal to be 8th, but some of us want to find a way to follow and support the club with interest, and without resorting to nonstop hand-wringing and lamentation, because there's just nothing to gain from it other than stress and annoyance. If your argument is that we should all be unhappy no matter what if our standards (whatever that actually means) are not met, then I'd say you're asking for too much. That's just not the way I'm interested in following the Arsenal.

jones

mdgoonah41 wrote:
we fluked an FA cup run in arteta's first half season, and he was given the keys to the car, which he then proceeded to drive off a cliff and into the ocean. and now we are all drowning, and being told this is the start of something glorious.

Beautifully put

goon

In the period leading up to Arteta taking over we had won something like 7 in 26 in the league. The narrative that he started the nosedive is just wilful ignorance from his detractors.

mdgoonah41

goon wrote:
In the period leading up to Arteta taking over we had won something like 7 in 26 in the league. The narrative that he started the nosedive is just wilful ignorance from his detractors.

this is wrong, and part of the manipulation that i mentioned above. no one here was happy with how emery's reign went. people were pissed and were calling for him to go. our decline started in wenger's last 2 seasons (and honestly, before then too), but wenger finished 2nd in the league in his 3rd to last season, then 5th and 6th. people were furious and wanted him to go. the decline had started, and fans were not happy, they wanted change, and wanted us to stop the slide into mediocrity. emery did nothing to stop that slide, and the slide has accelerated under arteta. which people rightly point out.

a decade ago, an 8th place finish in the league would not have been acceptable to anyone. now, it is a feather in arteta's cap, and people have contorted themselves into knots talking about how terrible our squad is, how arteta basically performed a miracle to get us to 8th, when managerial maestros like david moyes can drag less talented squads to higher league finishes.

no rational arsenal fan thinks arteta started our decent into the abyss. hes just been accelerant on the fire

Ray

The benefit which Arteta brings is stability. Knowing that no matter what happens Kroenkes are backing him in the transfer market is a big asset. It helps with the players too, knowing this guy will be here for a while, no matter what.

Fans should just embrace that stability, because he has managed to convince the club leadership that he is the man.

Clrnc

mdgoonah41 wrote:
goon wrote:
In the period leading up to Arteta taking over we had won something like 7 in 26 in the league. The narrative that he started the nosedive is just wilful ignorance from his detractors.

this is wrong, and part of the manipulation that i mentioned above. no one here was happy with how emery's reign went. people were pissed and were calling for him to go. our decline started in wenger's last 2 seasons (and honestly, before then too), but wenger finished 2nd in the league in his 3rd to last season, then 5th and 6th. people were furious and wanted him to go. the decline had started, and fans were not happy, they wanted change, and wanted us to stop the slide into mediocrity. emery did nothing to stop that slide, and the slide has accelerated under arteta. which people rightly point out.

a decade ago, an 8th place finish in the league would not have been acceptable to anyone. now, it is a feather in arteta's cap, and people have contorted themselves into knots talking about how terrible our squad is, how arteta basically performed a miracle to get us to 8th, when managerial maestros like david moyes can drag less talented squads to higher league finishes.

no rational arsenal fan thinks arteta started our decent into the abyss. hes just been accelerant on the fire

Can't argue with this. Very nicely summarised.

Still, if he gets us to top 4 this season. I would have no complains and I doubt you would be unhappy about it too but fair points all around. He has failed till now.

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