Has Arteta Truly Turned it Around?: Page 182 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Has Arteta Truly Turned it Around?

goon

I actually think playing twice a week can help with rhythm, I'm not too worried about December, it's actually a good chance to get a decent run in.

I'd worry more about Jan. Players will have played a lot of football, others will be off to AFCON and we will likely have a tough League Cup double header to contend with. And we've got City and Spurs.

Clrnc

Then those teams with European commitments, their players would have played even more? WHU and Leicester have thinner squads than us, how will that work out?

flobaba

Okay, let’s credit Arteta then.

The best I can say from a macroscopic perspective is that he has the team performing (points-wise) close to where our talent level dictates. He has achieved a decent level of consistency with our results.

My contention is that we need the team to be overperforming to make it into the top 4. For him to make the team into more than the sum of its parts. I do not think he can achieve this.

We need him to be special. I don’t think he is.

flobaba

Doc wrote:
Dont know, good test to see where we are at after recent run, will prob be pretty close at OT. I expect us to win more than we lose against the teams around us but ultimately its the league position that matters. Whats the point?

The point is it shouldn’t be a “don’t know” at this stage in his tenure. It ought to be a “should win”, especially considering they are at possibly the lowest ebb they’ve been in quite a while.

But you’re right: we don’t know. I am guessing many a West Ham fan would be more confident than we are going into this game.

Ricky1985

It's still early days, but I'm really liking what Arteta has done with this team and squad.

I love the back 5 he's put together, I think they look to have real potential defensively and are exactly what I want in terms of athleticism, age profile, technical quality and personality. And White and Gabriel really looks a superb partnership. I feel Gabriel is the leader in the defensive sense and White is the guy driving the team in possession. I can see him becoming almost like a playmaker for the team - he's not just any old passing centreback, he sees the game like a midfielder, a move or two ahead of the pass he's playing. It's great to watch and I think there's more to come.

I'm also liking Partey and Lokonga in midfield, even if that feels like a partnership that has a lot of developing to do. I still want a midfielder - someome genius and with great passing, but Sambi has impressed me a ton in bits here and there very recently. I think we still need to work out this third midfileder/Number 10 situation - hopefully Ødegaard can find his groove and take the technical level of the midfield up a notch and offer a different type of chance creation. I definitely think there's loads more to come from him.

It's also great to see the way in which Saka and Smith Rowe are being integrated. They seem to go from strength to strength, and I think Arteta now has them in just the right positions to allow them thrive. It's exciting to consider how far they can go. Saka is already a world beater the moment he clicks into gear at 20 years old!

And I'm looking forward to seeing what Arteta does next with the attack. When he's got his own guys in there - Pépé, Lacazette and Aubameyang are not his guys (Auba's new contract doesn't make him Arteta's guy in my eyes because at that time, where the club was, there's no way Arsenal could afford to lose him). I think we'll start to see much more of Martinelli and a new striker will come in that fits with the game we're trying to play.

AAStyle

Ricky1985 wrote:
It's still early days, but I'm really liking what Arteta has done with this team and squad.

I love the back 5 he's put together, I think they look to have real potential defensively and are exactly what I want in terms of athleticism, age profile, technical quality and personality. And White and Gabriel really looks a superb partnership. I feel Gabriel is the leader in the defensive sense and White is the guy driving the team in possession. I can see him becoming almost like a playmaker for the team - he's not just any old passing centreback, he sees the game like a midfielder, a move or two ahead of the pass he's playing. It's great to watch and I think there's more to come.

I'm also liking Partey and Lokonga in midfield, even if that feels like a partnership that has a lot of developing to do. I still want a midfielder - someome genius and with great passing, but Sambi has impressed me a ton in bits here and there very recently. I think we still need to work out this third midfileder/Number 10 situation - hopefully Ødegaard can find his groove and take the technical level of the midfield up a notch and offer a different type of chance creation. I definitely think there's loads more to come from him.

It's also great to see the way in which Saka and Smith Rowe are being integrated. They seem to go from strength to strength, and I think Arteta now has them in just the right positions to allow them thrive. It's exciting to consider how far they can go. Saka is already a world beater the moment he clicks into gear at 20 years old!

And I'm looking forward to seeing what Arteta does next with the attack. When he's got his own guys in there - Pépé, Lacazette and Aubameyang are not his guys (Auba's new contract doesn't make him Arteta's guy in my eyes because at that time, where the club was, there's no way Arsenal could afford to lose him). I think we'll start to see much more of Martinelli and a new striker will come in that fits with the game we're trying to play.

Early days? Mate this is his 3rd season here...

flobaba

Ricky, come on you’re basically saying we need to sign an entire new team before we see Arteta’s genius. A whole entire new team.

What’s the point of a “manager” then?

Plus why we aren’t saying good players like Saka who pre-date him aren’t “his guys” ala Auba? When he made his pitch to ownership you think he went, hey don’t worry just give me 300 million so I can buy a new team and then I’ll show you how good I am?

Burnwinter

We need both to be honest. It doesn't need to be one or the other. We need to see improvement in our attacking play ahead of what is now one of the league's more stable defences, which is down to Arteta, but we also need to recruit.

But if Arteta can't get this line-up to click to the point we sink three or four unanswered goals into a weaker side some time soon, he's failing.

banduan

I think the fact that every single one of the signings he wanted this season have turned out to be spectacular warrants a lot of credit. But there's plenty of time for any of them to suddenly come off the boil. I'm definitely willing to hold out and see where the process goes but Mikel must keep proving himself every week.

Gazza M

flobaba wrote:
Ricky, come on you’re basically saying we need to sign an entire new team before we see Arteta’s genius. A whole entire new team.

What’s the point of a “manager” then?

Plus why we aren’t saying good players like Saka who pre-date him aren’t “his guys” ala Auba? When he made his pitch to ownership you think he went, hey don’t worry just give me 300 million so I can buy a new team and then I’ll show you how good I am?

kse have made a big bet on him, and credit to him if he's convinced them to do so. I'm mainly looking at the pieces being brought in terms of their transferability to a new regime if it comes to it, and in that sense I'm comfortable with the recruitment they've done. I'm interested to see how much further the kroenkes are willing to go, as this strategy requires more big spending on a few more key positions.

Burnwinter

I know the committed anti-Arteta folks on here are clear on the urgency of getting ourselves back to a more dominant league status, but whatever the timeline, the recruitment strategy and the choice of a fresh-faced young manager do actually give us a tiny bit more latitude. We might just about afford replacing Arteta with a different manager at a later juncture, this summer or following, without this playing group being broken up.

This decoupling is how the new structure is supposed to work, and it's one reason not to judge the club solely in terms of the technical project we scrutinise on match days. There's the division of responsibility, the squad rebuild, the attempt at cultural change and the attempt at changing our profile in addition to the technical side. Although they can't forgive poor football, Arteta has superior "intangibles" on those other aspects than a Conte or Emery would at Arsenal.

jones

flobaba wrote:
What’s the point of a “manager” then?

It's insane how everyone keeps forgetting this simple and elementar question. We might as well have brought Mourinho in if we're talking about having a manager in charge who's job is to buy good players and field them in a defensive manner.

jones

Burnwinter wrote:
I know the committed anti-Arteta folks on here are clear on the urgency of getting ourselves back to a more dominant league status, but whatever the timeline, the recruitment strategy and the choice of a fresh-faced young manager do actually give us a tiny bit more latitude. We might just about afford replacing Arteta with a different manager at a later juncture, this summer or following, without this playing group being broken up.

You do realise the same was supposed to be true when Arteta took the reins? That Arteta should've been the fresh faced manager to lift the players up who were underperforming before he joined?

Clrnc

Yeah that argument doesn't make sense to me. It can be true that our squad and manager is both underperforming.

What is more concerning for me is that even with an almost total new squad that Arteta built, we have never seen any semblance of consistent dominating attacking performance, but rather in very tiny spurts during matches. Over the past 3 years with almost 3 different group of players he has not shown any clear signs of his own philosophy. Of course as long as he churns out result I don't care but long term wise it doesn't seem sustainable, or that he will ever be a good manager.

jones

He definitely has shown his philosophy, it's that of a safety first manager. He might instill confidence in some of the young players but he hasn't improved anyone one bit, you can count the natural development curve of the youngers to his work but the fact all of the older guys have deteriorated under him should tell you enough. We can't put daylight between us and the opposition because he doesn't want to take risks, the players almost never overload the box which is clearly by design. We have five or six technical players on the pitch and can't create more than 3-5 big chances per game, that's the definition of a coach who'd rather have a potential chance go to waste than run into a counter.

Rohit

If a manager's only remit was signing the right players then Arteta has done very well. He hasn't got any of the units really going though regardless of the players at his disposal though. He isn't getting the best out of the team. He may have a high ceiling and turn into a top manager. I don't want to discount the improvement he will make with experience like young players do but getting into the top 4 will become more challenging year on year. We have a small window and we might pay for nurturing not just young players but also a rookie manager.

goon

Arteta's philosophy isn't defensive or attacking, it's about control. I actually think the Newcastle game will give you a decent idea of what the end product will ideally be like for him, add a bit more tempo and few more decent chances and you'll end up with routine 3 or 4-0 wins at home. It won't be art or heavy metal but efficient.

The myth that he hates young players should be well and truly dispelled now, it was always a ludicrous one for me given the evidence to the contrary.

Ray

goon wrote:
Arteta's philosophy isn't defensive or attacking, it's about control. I actually think the Newcastle game will give you a decent idea of what the end product will ideally be like for him, add a bit more tempo and few more decent chances and you'll end up with routine 3 or 4-0 wins at home. It won't be art or heavy metal but efficient.

The myth that he hates young players should be well and truly dispelled now, it was always a ludicrous one for me given the evidence to the contrary.

So you're Arteta in then?

jones

goon wrote:
Arteta's philosophy isn't defensive or attacking, it's about control.

How is "control" anything but defensive if there's no movement off the ball? Guardiola's Barcelona would hog the ball 80% per match and you'd see Pedro Messi Alves etc make runs all game long, we keep the ball and everyone's static to ensure we don't get countered.

Being defensive doesn't mean you boot the ball out and stick 10 men around your box, that's simplistic thinking. Look at van Gaal for a prime example of it if you genuinely believe that Arteta is not defensive. I'm genuinely baffled you actually believe he's not 😆

Clrnc

I have to add "control" is too simplistic and not a philosophy. Which coach don't want to be in control? Mourinho with 30% of the possession against us always tell you he has the match in control too by limiting our dangerous chances.

If we are talking about control in terms of pointless possession, even that can't classify because our possession stats varies wildly from game to game and opponents still create good chances against us anyway. Newcastle could have easily scored or had a penalty.

We can't even be classified as a charmeleon team like Tuchel's Chelsea who can turn it up and dominate opponents create tons of chances when needed.

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