Arsenal Summer Exits 2020: Page 41 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Arsenal Summer Exits 2020

Burnwinter

Wouldn't mind a loan deal with Torreira, I think his value is quite likely to go up somewhat in Italy or Spain.

goon

£10m+ for Mustafi would be lovely.

Gazza M

Torino offered a loan with an obligation to buy last i read. That trumps what atleti have proposed which appears to just be a loan. An obligation gives us guaranteed cash which is what we need at the moment

Qwiss

Torreira plus the Emi and Mustafi money should be enough for Partey.

jones

Mirth wrote:
jones wrote:
Competition is intense everywhere, stop drinking the Sky koolaid. You can clown Dortmund for playing three minors yesterday but that team would've smashed half the EPL too. You could also point to City winning the league at a canter playing six attacking midfielders at the same time, if that happened elsewhere you wouldn't hear the end of how that wouldn't fly in England

Competition for the title isn't intense in the Bundesliga as other leagues - you can't claim that when Bayern win 8 league titles in a row. Even Ligue 1 has more upsets at the top end. It's really not the same as City playing one of Pep's weird formations for a bit because, despite their moments of domination, there's usually a challenger within a year or two. And of course that fundamentally changes how teams structure their transfer policy when there's more at stake.

I said competition not competition for the title. People act as if teams beyond Bayern play football for fun unlike the mighty blood and thunder EPL warriors where even your Burnleys and West Broms are a match for the strongest continental teams.

I dont understand your last sentence. You think there's more at stake in England because most teams expect Bayern to win the title at the beginning of the season?

Qwiss

Klaus wrote:
Clrnc wrote:
That's really unfair on Dortmund. I'd argue they have more ambitions than us, especially in the transfer market. There's a reason why they have won the league more recently than us and has done better in europe, have a far better squad this decade.

They last won the league a decade ago in a two-team league, all while selling their best players to their only competition. Well done to them.

😆 Spot on.

QuincyAbeyie

Doesn't put us in a good light when a club with no ambition and a strategy of selling their best players consistently field better teams than us.

goon

I don't think anyone here is going to be arguing about the success of our strategy over the last decade.

QuincyAbeyie

I sure don't hope so. I just don't think Dortmund's last decade is that laughable. Sure, they haven't won the league in a long time, but that's kind of like criticizing the Ligue 1 teams for not challenging PSG more. It's fucking Bayern Munchen. Dortmund are more often than not doing well in the CL and came to the final once as well. With their economy I don't see what one would expect them to do.

Gazza M

Qwiss! wrote:
Torreira plus the Emi and Mustafi money should be enough for Partey.

Sok, kola, guendo, reiss for aouar. We won't pick up big fees for them, but the combined shedding of 4 players wages should also free up some cash

Mirth

jones wrote:
Mirth wrote:
Competition for the title isn't intense in the Bundesliga as other leagues - you can't claim that when Bayern win 8 league titles in a row. Even Ligue 1 has more upsets at the top end. It's really not the same as City playing one of Pep's weird formations for a bit because, despite their moments of domination, there's usually a challenger within a year or two. And of course that fundamentally changes how teams structure their transfer policy when there's more at stake.

I said competition not competition for the title. People act as if teams beyond Bayern play football for fun unlike the mighty blood and thunder EPL warriors where even your Burnleys and West Broms are a match for the strongest continental teams.

I dont understand your last sentence. You think there's more at stake in England because most teams expect Bayern to win the title at the beginning of the season?

I'll take your word that the competition in the rest of the league is alive and well but this discussion was framed as competition at the top end of the table because we're discussing Dortmund and their transfer strategy. In terms of the transfer strategy, if there's more competition for fewer spots (whether it's the CL or the title) you're forced to take fewer risks with your transfer approach since there's less room to speculate on talent. Dortmund are still incredible at developing talent and bringing them through but so were we when we just had Man Utd to contend with.

It wasn't always like this, 2006-2013 was a good spell for the Bundlesliga with plenty of hipsters being drawn to the league and there was a degree of unpredictability which culminated in the Bayern v Dortmund final of 2013. One outcome of Bayern's subsequent dominance is that teams (aside from Bayern) haven't been properly represented in the Champions league since the high point in 2013. At the top end it now seems like the league operates as a vehicle for Bayern's continental ambitions. I'm sure the relegation battles are still thrilling though.

jones

What English team other than Liverpool have done well in the CL?

Mirth

English teams have done better in the Champions league than Bundesliga or Serie A teams by going further in the competition. And everyone's done worse than the Spanish clubs. The coefficients bear that out too.

Seems odd to pretend otherwise.

Clrnc

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
I sure don't hope so. I just don't think Dortmund's last decade is that laughable. Sure, they haven't won the league in a long time, but that's kind of like criticizing the Ligue 1 teams for not challenging PSG more. It's fucking Bayern Munchen. Dortmund are more often than not doing well in the CL and came to the final once as well. With their economy I don't see what one would expect them to do.

Yeah its kinda insane. They have a smaller fanbase, a smaller history, basically a smaller club but a far better team this entire decade year on year, and is also better than us in Europe.

If they are selling players left right centre every year and still manage to build a better squad than us then there's very little to laugh about.

Claudius

It’s not a sign of disrespect towards the Bundesliga to say it cannot keep up with the financial might of the Bundesliga. But when Frankfurt were a Europa league quality aide they lost Haller to English cellar dwellers West Ham. Joelinton also went from Hoffenheim to Newcastle for a massive fee. Sancho ran off to start at 2nd place Borussia because there was no path to first team football at City, etc. The German teams also cannot compete with the English financial might for sourcing players across the world. They’ll tend to scout young continental players better, but won’t compete for the big transfer deals.

The one league that can say it’s competitive with or better than England is La Liga, and it clearly shows in the country coefficient. Every year, Atletico, Barcelona and Real are competitive in the champions league, and teams like Sevilla are regularly lifting the Europa League, with some movement in the league amongst them, Sociedad, Valencia, Athletic.

jones

Mirth wrote:
English teams have done better in the Champions league than Bundesliga or Serie A teams by going further in the competition. And everyone's done worse than the Spanish clubs. The coefficients bear that out too.

Seems odd to pretend otherwise.

I didn't pretend anything, what's with the strawman? My initial argument was that the German league isn't much weaker than the EPL based on my watching both leagues, then I stated that Bayern steamrolling teams doesn't say all that much about the rest of the teams since they'd be doing the same in England just like Liverpool and City are.

Finally your argument about the coefficient doesn't disprove my point about England being represented well only by Liverpool really. Spurs fluked a run but so have Leipzig, generally speaking English teams have done better (which they should looking at the vast resources at their disposal) but not by all that much, the gap between La Liga and the rest is bigger as you stated. Not sure what's there to argue about.

jones

Claudius wrote:
It’s not a sign of disrespect towards the Bundesliga to say it cannot keep up with the financial might of the Bundesliga. But when Frankfurt were a Europa league quality aide they lost Haller to English cellar dwellers West Ham. Joelinton also went from Hoffenheim to Newcastle for a massive fee. Sancho ran off to start at 2nd place Borussia because there was no path to first team football at City, etc. The German teams also cannot compete with the English financial might for sourcing players across the world. They’ll tend to scout young continental players better, but won’t compete for the big transfer deals.

The one league that can say it’s competitive with or better than England is La Liga, and it clearly shows in the country coefficient. Every year, Atletico, Barcelona and Real are competitive in the champions league, and teams like Sevilla are regularly lifting the Europa League, with some movement in the league amongst them, Sociedad, Valencia, Athletic.

Again, none of which I argued against. Financially there's no comparison really, in terms of quality and competition there definitely is which was what you implied earlier. No team is happy to coast in the league, the lack of resources on the contrary keeps teams on edge all the time unlike moronic clubs like Fulham or Villa who happily spend 150m per summer only to go down again after eight months while enjoying their parachute payments

goon

I think the perception is that the PL should be a lot better due to it's financial muscle, but it isn't because English clubs tend to pay huge money for a lot of dime a dozen players. Even the really good ones come with a massive premium. So all it takes is slightly better scouting, judgement and coaching to make up the gap.

What I will say is the PL has more teams that can potentially reach the top vs Bayern's monopoly.

Mirth

jones wrote:
I didn't pretend anything, what's with the strawman? My initial argument was that the German league isn't much weaker than the EPL based on my watching both leagues, then I stated that Bayern steamrolling teams doesn't say all that much about the rest of the teams since they'd be doing the same in England just like Liverpool and City are.

Finally your argument about the coefficient doesn't disprove my point about England being represented well only by Liverpool really. Spurs fluked a run but so have Leipzig, generally speaking English teams have done better (which they should looking at the vast resources at their disposal) but not by all that much, the gap between La Liga and the rest is bigger as you stated. Not sure what's there to argue about.

Leaving aside any subjectivity, there's been multiple winners of the Premier League in the past 10 years. There have only been 2 winners of the Bundesliga in that time. Liverpool and City do dominate the league but on a scale that's lower than Bayern (see: multiple winners of the Premier league this decade).

As for the coefficients, your interpretation is just factually wrong. It's not represented by Liverpool alone - Liverpool weren't even in the Champions League for half a decade and, even if they were, they'd net off against Bayern's dominance. The remaining Premier league clubs do better than their German or Italian counter parts. As a result, the coefficients stand as follows:

1 - La Liga: 80.855
2 - Premier League - 78.712
3 - Serie A - 61.653
4 - Bundesliga - 60.856
5 - Ligue 1 - 50.415

The gap between the Premier league and the rest is far larger than the Premier League gap with Spainish football. And this applies at all levels where the leagues can be meaningfully compared i.e. the Champions League and the Europa league. The only straw man is you banging on about Fulham, West Brom or Burnley.

Claudius

Mirth wrote:
jones wrote:
I didn't pretend anything, what's with the strawman? My initial argument was that the German league isn't much weaker than the EPL based on my watching both leagues, then I stated that Bayern steamrolling teams doesn't say all that much about the rest of the teams since they'd be doing the same in England just like Liverpool and City are.

Finally your argument about the coefficient doesn't disprove my point about England being represented well only by Liverpool really. Spurs fluked a run but so have Leipzig, generally speaking English teams have done better (which they should looking at the vast resources at their disposal) but not by all that much, the gap between La Liga and the rest is bigger as you stated. Not sure what's there to argue about.

Leaving aside any subjectivity, there's been multiple winners of the Premier League in the past 10 years. There have only been 2 winners of the Bundesliga in that time. Liverpool and City do dominate the league but on a scale that's lower than Bayern (see: multiple winners of the Premier league this decade).

As for the coefficients, your interpretation is just factually wrong. It's not represented by Liverpool alone - Liverpool weren't even in the Champions League for half a decade and, even if they were, they'd net off against Bayern's dominance. The remaining Premier league clubs do better than their German or Italian counter parts. As a result, the coefficients stand as follows:

1 - La Liga: 80.855
2 - Premier League - 78.712
3 - Serie A - 61.653
4 - Bundesliga - 60.856
5 - Ligue 1 - 50.415

The gap between the Premier league and the rest is far larger than the Premier League gap with Spainish football. And this applies at all levels where the leagues can be meaningfully compared i.e. the Champions League and the Europa league. The only straw man is you banging on about Fulham, West Brom or Burnley.

Good post, Mirth. The Bayern/Dortmund domination extends to the Cup where at least one of them has been represented in the final for pretty much the past decade. The Bundesliga is neither as strong nor as competitive as the Premier League.

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