Official: Mikel Arteta is the new Arsenal manager.: Page 131 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Official: Mikel Arteta is the new Arsenal manager.

Anzac

goon wrote:
Clrnc wrote:
That's a flawed question because at big clubs they wouldn't even have lasted till now or later to be valid for your question.

At small club, there are some examples of coaches being given a chance, being relegated and then got promoted back again. Rafa Benitez, Dyche off the top of my head coming straight back up and surviving the next season.

I meant at a top 6 type club scenario specifically. Ferguson is the only example I can think of, I think he was 17th or something in his 3rd season in charge, but that was from the late 1980s...

Also a very different era in terms of expectations and social media pressure.

speedy

One of the issues is arteta has never been a manager. So he hasn't got the experience to keep everyone onside. It hasn't been the right balance of support and push. It only comes with experience.

Also arteta hasn't build his ideal coaching team. I bet his attacking coach would be replaced and the set piece coach. He had to suddenly cobble together a coaching squad that takes years to find the right people that can work together and with him.

Can't see him getting the dressing room back here but he's got potential to do well elsewhere.

Anzac

Clrnc wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Yeh, for all of Solskjaer's flaws he doesn't really hesitate to field attacking players. It has paid off in key moments I guess. It's only Arteta who doesn't realise that five defenders, two defensive midfielders, a defensive striker and a defensive winger won't grab you the necessary points to succeed.

I am actually really curious why does his philosophy differ so much from the only coach he has understudied from. Pep literally don't even bother playing defenders sometimes. Of course resources differs a lot but surely attacking intent should be somewhat not so different?

I actually suspect Arteta ideas are badly eroded and wrongly advised by a lot of his negative coaches.

I'm still not convinced we are seeing the full picture of what Arteta wants, and are only able to see small parts of it.
IMO the biggest difference to Guardiola's style at MC is that he has had the time and resources to get players fit for his purpose.

Guardiola is still very strict in terms of his adherence to his patterns of play from both the team and individuals, both in game and in training.
That said as I understand it the major difference between Cruyff and LVG was the former allowed players freedom to express themselves in the final 3rd whereas LVG still required strict adherence to the system. We know Guardiola is a product of the former, but Arteta may be more a product of the latter from his youth development.

Qwiss

Don Pacifico wrote:
It's more about what goon said last week - if we've hired a young, inexperienced manager, you need to accept there will be tough patches. But that doesn't mean they don't have ability.

Given all the structural changes in the club over the last couple of years, we need some continuity to actual build something that doesn't resemble the Frankenstein's monster of a club we see now.

Hiring a young inexperienced manager was a mistake, hanging onto him just because he's young is doubling down on that mistake. Arteta needs to go away and learn his trade somewhere else. We need someone who can manage the squad we have right now. This whole thing of saying we need 6 more is horseshit, you'll never get to that point. He's too rigid, we need a real manager.

Anzac

swider wrote:
goon wrote:
Anyway, Gazza is right, the red flags are starting to outnumber the red cards, but I still think this is far from being what Arteta wants and I still want to see what he musters up by the end of the season, but maybe that will change. If nothing else, I don't think we'd be doing the next manager any favours in giving him the club in this state.

It looks like this poor run is going to continue, because we play worse football every week. Burnley was absolutely shocking in the first half and not much better in the second half, and I do not think we had an easier game in the league for a quite a few years. If anything the longer it continues the worse situation the next manager will have to deal with.

As of now he needs to show something of what his football end product looks like if he wants to get anything from the Jan transfer window. Yes improved results are important but more importantly he needs to show he is worth the long term commitment and support on and off the pitch by both club and supporters.

goon

Qwiss! wrote:
The problem is you can't do that with a manager who won't back youth.

He could go a long way to winning people back over by giving kids a run. What has he got to lose at this point? You cannot possibly argue that kids are not reliable when the grown ups are letting you down so badly.

If he played something like this against Southampton:

Willock/AMN - Ceballos

Pepe - ESR - Saka

Auba

I'd genuinely look forward to the game. There's enough there that it could spark something in this side, even temporarily, without having to change style or compromise on his fundamentals

Sadly I expect to see something more like Ceballos in for Xhaka, then pray.

Qwiss

That's exactly it. All these kids click with each other too, they know each other, they play the same way. We look like a team of strangers, play the guys with chemistry.

Anzac

Clrnc wrote:

Many have questioned why £28m man William Saliba hasn't been used in the first team this season and when speaking to a source inside the club, football.london was told that the Frenchman "was an Emery signing", in reference to Arteta's predecessor.

That certainly rings true when you assess the players who have been exiled or sent out on loan. From Ozil and Sokratis' exile, to Lucas Torreira and Matteo Guendouzi being sent out on loan, Arteta and Edu have gradually made sure that they've left their mark on the squad, with Edu continuing to maintain a close relationship with Kia Joorabchian who has been involved in several deals at the club over the past year.

I can't believe Ray was right when he guessed that. I refused to believe Arteta would play politics instead of just fielding the players he think is the best for us on the pitch.

Smacks of the new broom wanting to make a mark/statement, but could also simply mean the players are not considered as being suitable for what they want, along with half the match day squad.

Klaus

Qwiss! wrote:
Hiring a young inexperienced manager was a mistake, hanging onto him just because he's young is doubling down on that mistake. Arteta needs to go away and learn his trade somewhere else. We need someone who can manage the squad we have right now. This whole thing of saying we need 6 more is horseshit, you'll never get to that point. He's too rigid, we need a real manager.

Yep. That's laying out what Arteta needs to be successful with the parameters he has chosen, but not what we need. We need someone who can do it without half a decade of assembling the right pieces first.

We can't scale down the size and ambition of the club just because we went and hired an inexperienced person. The "wait and see" was about whether he could rise to the occasion, not whether we'd have to lower the bar to his current level. Being where we are now is not acceptable in any size, shape or form. Arteta is not in charge of Bournemouth, he's in charge of Arsenal.

Qwiss

If we stick with Arteta where do people see it going? Even an optimistic view of things would make us a boring EL team full of old mercenaries.

Don Pacifico

Qwiss! wrote:
Don Pacifico wrote:
It's more about what goon said last week - if we've hired a young, inexperienced manager, you need to accept there will be tough patches. But that doesn't mean they don't have ability.

Given all the structural changes in the club over the last couple of years, we need some continuity to actual build something that doesn't resemble the Frankenstein's monster of a club we see now.

Hiring a young inexperienced manager was a mistake, hanging onto him just because he's young is doubling down on that mistake. Arteta needs to go away and learn his trade somewhere else. We need someone who can manage the squad we have right now. This whole thing of saying we need 6 more is horseshit, you'll never get to that point. He's too rigid, we need a real manager.

I don't wholly disagree with what you're saying. But unless you can point to someone who we're going to be able to bring in before the end of the season, who will be able to instill a long-term plan/culture, in really not convinced.

Side-point: I think our club structure is fucking us over. Arteta's (and Emery's for that matter) long-term vision don't mean shit if we've got Edu/Raul doing Kia favours over actually bringing in building blocks for this squad. Maybe no manager can save us without overhauling the upper echelons?

Clrnc

Klaus wrote:
Qwiss! wrote:
Hiring a young inexperienced manager was a mistake, hanging onto him just because he's young is doubling down on that mistake. Arteta needs to go away and learn his trade somewhere else. We need someone who can manage the squad we have right now. This whole thing of saying we need 6 more is horseshit, you'll never get to that point. He's too rigid, we need a real manager.

Yep. That's laying out what Arteta needs to be successful with the parameters he has chosen, but not what we need. We need someone who can do it without half a decade of assembling the right pieces first.

We can't scale down the size and ambition of the club just because we went and hired an inexperienced person. The "wait and see" was about whether he could rise to the occasion, not whether we'd have to lower the bar to his current level. Being where we are now is not acceptable in any size, shape or form. Arteta is not in charge of Bournemouth, he's in charge of Arsenal.

Exactly. How do people not see this? We are a big club

Burnwinter

We remain a full rebuilding cycle away from challenging for anything. We actually do need to scale down the size and ambition at this point and focus on players for the future, the guys who will still be of prime playing age or fit for a decent transfer price in three years, of whom we have a few.

Meatwad

i don't like the way he has levels to how he treats players (other than ozil all the players he mistreats are ones i like and i hate all the ones he likes), so i don't trust his character and now actively rooting for him to fail. fuck him.

Klaus

Burnwinter wrote:
We remain a full rebuilding cycle away from challenging for anything. We actually do need to scale down the size and ambition at this point and focus on players for the future, the guys who will still be of prime playing age or fit for a decent transfer price in three years, of whom we have a few.

Unfortunately for Arteta, those are the players he doesn't give the light of day because he plugs in lads like Willian, Xhaka, Lacazette and Cedric instead whenever and wherever he can. Zero upside to this kind of management, which is not only shit in the present but also short-sighted.

mdgoonah41

Qwiss! wrote:
If we stick with Arteta where do people see it going? Even an optimistic view of things would make us a boring EL team full of old mercenaries.

7th-10th in the table, decent FA cup runs maybe

he has no identity as a manager. we are the biggest cowards in the league, playing football that would make tony pulis vomit. im sick of hearing about him needing more players. we're the biggest underacheivers in the league. a top manager adapts to what he has and works out where he wants to get to in the future. arteta has no idea what hes doing, which is the charitable way to look at it, because if he really thinks that playing a super defensive team and hoofing crosses at lacazette and auba is the way forward, then hes a fucking moron

Anzac

Klaus wrote:
Anzac wrote:
Hassenhuttl?
Allegri?
Tuchel in the summer?

IMO it will need to be someone who has some managerial creds so as to lead the player group AND attract talent.

Hassenhuttl is a decent shout. Allegri, I feel, is going to be an Italian Emery. And Tuchel can't even perform with PSG; we've already tried one manager like that and it didn't go well.

I think PSG is a cluster club much like us, except they are probably more in line with CFC (in their turn over of managers) in their attempt to win the UCL, whereas we lack the ambition to make our own destiny as opposed to allowing it to happen if & when it does.

Hassenhuttl would be my 1st choice at this point as he knows the PL, has had his moment of crisis at Saints and has come through playing some decent football based upon his resources, and is currently sitting top4.

Qwiss

Don Pacifico wrote:
Qwiss! wrote:
Hiring a young inexperienced manager was a mistake, hanging onto him just because he's young is doubling down on that mistake. Arteta needs to go away and learn his trade somewhere else. We need someone who can manage the squad we have right now. This whole thing of saying we need 6 more is horseshit, you'll never get to that point. He's too rigid, we need a real manager.

I don't wholly disagree with what you're saying. But unless you can point to someone who we're going to be able to bring in before the end of the season, who will be able to instill a long-term plan/culture, in really not convinced.

Side-point: I think our club structure is fucking us over. Arteta's (and Emery's for that matter) long-term vision don't mean shit if we've got Edu/Raul doing Kia favours over actually bringing in building blocks for this squad. Maybe no manager can save us without overhauling the upper echelons?

I don't think we should have any manager coming in and being responsible for the long term culture of the club. That shouldn't be the coaches job, guys like Wenger are too few and far between, we need to deal with the reality of modern football and accept that the coach probably wont be here for the long term, even if he does well he may go elsewhere. I'll add to that if we are looking at the coach to instil the culture then I want Arteta gone even more, I don't want the club to be synonymous with old players and shit boring football.

I think you are right about Kia, Edu, etc but I think Arteta was happy with the Kia picks Edu brought him and thats another part of it. He's still playing Willian week in week out.

mentalvortex

Anzac wrote:
Klaus wrote:
Hassenhuttl is a decent shout. Allegri, I feel, is going to be an Italian Emery. And Tuchel can't even perform with PSG; we've already tried one manager like that and it didn't go well.

I think PSG is a cluster club much like us, except they are probably more in line with CFC (in their turn over of managers) in their attempt to win the UCL, whereas we lack the ambition to make our own destiny as opposed to allowing it to happen if & when it does.

Hassenhuttl would be my 1st choice at this point as he knows the PL, has had his moment of crisis at Saints and has come through playing some decent football based upon his resources, and is currently sitting top4.

A lot of Tuchels problems are also of his own doing. He is incredibly stubborn and not the friendliest presence in the boardroom/dressing room.

Burnwinter

Klaus wrote:
Burnwinter wrote:
We remain a full rebuilding cycle away from challenging for anything. We actually do need to scale down the size and ambition at this point and focus on players for the future, the guys who will still be of prime playing age or fit for a decent transfer price in three years, of whom we have a few.

Unfortunately for Arteta, those are the players he doesn't give the light of day because he plugs in lads like Willian, Xhaka, Lacazette and Cedric instead whenever and wherever he can. Zero upside to this kind of management, which is not only shit in the present but also short-sighted.

Completely agreed, but at least Arteta's style is a problem we can actually work on. He's not long for the job. Results are going to force the hand of the Board. We're not quite relegation fodder yet, but we won't have 20 points at the end of 2020.

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