Tottenham @ Ashburton | 1 September (Sunday), 4.30 pm | Dolma and Coffee: Page 44 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Tottenham @ Ashburton | 1 September (Sunday), 4.30 pm | Dolma and Coffee

jones

Klaus wrote:
jones wrote:
Yeah but after Newcastle we had three games two of which were against Spurs and Liverpool, this isnt the time to chop again.

I'm sorry but I don't get the logic: drop Chambers when he's been good, but don't drop Tweedledum and Tweedledee when they're bad because they need time... what's the point, honestly?

You keep repeating that Chambers isn't good, despite evidence to the contrary. For someone who keeps insisting that people shouldn't judge Luiz and Sokratis on old merits you're sure doing the same thing here. I watched him a bunch last season and I saw a player who matured a lot in his football. He then seemed to carry that over when he came back here in preseason and was our best defender. He's younger and quicker than they are, and above all he's calmer and more organised. He's a bit shit in the air, so by all means pair him with the tallest of the clowns - that would be Luiz i suppose - and see how that works out. I have a hard time seeing Chambers being a future mainstay in the Arsenal defence too, but neither will these two over-the-hill fuckups.

The logic is I simply don't rate Chambers nearly as high as you do. Different assessments of players is all. What's not a matter of opinion however is that Chambers isn't as fast as either of Sokratis or Luiz, not even close. Don't think he'll look nearly as organised against teams that actually bother to attack is but then again what's the point of discussing two diametrically opposed opinions

I think neither Luiz nor Sokratis are over the hill, 31 and 32 is actually still prime age for a centre back. And I obviously think both can offer a lot more than they have shown so far, Sokratis because we've seen it last season (except for qs who always hated him) and Luiz because it's pretty fucking likely that a defender thrown into a team on short notice will improve over time

yuv

Spurs were unlucky not to lead by 3 goal in the first half?
I think they were very lucky to be leading at all.

Ndombele - ok, but Locelso and DA played.

It's a legit debate and each can hold their opinion on who's on the up or has more to expect from gelling/returning players.

But to me the missing FB's, the importance of Ceballos and Pepe and even stabilizing the FB pairing (whichever it is), and even Ozil (I know i'm in the minority here, but I still think he has a lot to give us) - that just looks to me like quite a bit.

As for the feeling after the game - again, subjective, but it looked to me like spurs were very lucky to avoid defeat, and I bet they felt the same way too.

I do agree with you entirely on the tactics. We were set up poorly, and should have been going for it from the off.

Captain

Qwiss! wrote:
goon wrote:
Just bring back Chambers, Newcastle is probably as organised as we've looked this season.

Yeah he may not be a monster defender but he does the basics fine and he can pass out from the back.

I like Chambers but have seen him get absolutely murdered in that situation plenty of times.

mdgoonah41

my preference is to let sokratis and luiz work as a pairing for at least the next month. holding is just now getting back to full fitness, he cant just be thrown in and expected to be the savior. let him build up his actual match fitness. given how we want to play, i think holding-luiz will probably get the first shot. if i remember right though, holding was playing with sokratis last year before he got hurt and they had a nice run of games.

either way, once he is fit again, holding deserves a look. if chambers plays well in the cup games, then he might deserve a look too. but id give sokratis and luiz at least the next month of games to see how they fit together

Mirth

Personally I think it'll be Jan before we see Holding at his best, in the meanwhile I don't see why Chambers shouldn't get a run out - our fixtures are still winnable and, more importantly, once we settle on whether he's good enough or not he can be shipped out accordingly next summer.

Captain

Holding is nowhere near as good as his reputation seems to have grown. Our best bet is that Tierney turns out to be worth the hot pursuit and Bellerin comes back strong (although he's not even much better that Maitland anyway).

Mirth

I feel that way as well actually - Holding did look good prior to his injury but he wasn't THAT good and it was only for a brief spell.

jones

Agree that Holding's reputation has far succeeded his performances in the past and that's not even considering that he just tore his ACL. He was decent but not much more than that

Saliba is probably, possibly or at least hopefully the only contender for #1 CB next season for me

QuincyAbeyie

I mean, what have people been saying about Holding other than that he was our best CB? It isn't really that high praise considering the state of our defence.

mdgoonah41

holding seemed calmer and less error prone than the other clowns he was playing with. no one is saying that he was the second coming of bobby moore, just that he looked solid before he got hurt. solid, in our clown show defense, is an asset.

Klaus

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
I mean, what have people been saying about Holding other than that he was our best CB? It isn't really that high praise considering the state of our defence.

That's an exaggeration in itself though. I don't think Holding was better than Sokratis at the time, and he definitely wasn't better than Kos last year. There has always been good potential in him, but since he got injured a lot of fans have been talking about him like he's indespensible and the linchpin of the defence.

The reality is he's another kid whose biggest claim to fame is that he didn't look out of place in a weak lineup. I think patience and restraint is going to be needed from the fans, especially as he recovers from an injury that could well end up ruining any designs he had to become a top player. The second he tore his ligament he should have been viewed as a bonus rather than someone we're pinning our future hopes on.

MuswellHillGooner

I think something has to be said about the type of partnership.
The pro-active CBs who break the line to try and win the ball (Koscielny, Sokratis, Luiz and Chambers?) are best paired with the sweeper types like Mertesacker and Holding. Using the last game as an example, Holding would have stayed back when Sokratis ran up to challenge Kane instead of the joke thing Luiz did that made him a non-factor.

lorddulaarsenal

Bellerin is shit but not as shit as Maitland Niles

Bring Back Kerrea Gilbert

Klaus wrote:
yuv wrote:
We are now the better team. This was not a great game for us, and we made our own lives very difficult - but there was only one conclusion after the game: they got away with it, we really should have won - and there's so much room for improvement on our side. That should change the negativity felt during and right after the game to a more positive view.

I'm not sure I agree with this view by the way. I thought Spurs were unlucky to not lead by three goals in the first half, and they were missing potentially bigger players from start than we were: Ndombele, Lo Celso, Dele Alli... if this had been their ground you'd allow us some leniency but I don't think this game was any sort of indication of where we'll end up.

The conclusion to me was rather that we shouldn't be afraid to throw more players forward. Good things tend to happen when we do, and the bad things happen anyway in the opposite end. We finished much better than we started, and that has been the summary of a lot of our football over the past year.

I said after the game that I expect Spurs to take care of us at their dump, if Emery sets us up with such a cautious midfield that offers no link to our attack again.

Bold Tone

The spuds missed their FBs more than their midfielders as defence has been their strength unlike us who have had a shit defence with or without our first choice FBs.

Temo

@lorddulaarsenal wrote:
Bellerin is shit but not as shit as Maitland Niles

I think Bellerin's finished, lost his pace a few years ago, and with his change to an all vegan diet, will likely be out injured regularly when he is back.

jones

Temo wrote:
@lorddulaarsenal wrote:
Bellerin is shit but not as shit as Maitland Niles

I think Bellerin's finished, lost his pace a few years ago, and with his change to an all vegan diet, will likely be out injured regularly when he is back.

I'm not vegan (ie not holding any personal grudges/predisposition here) but do you seriously believe the diet of a vegan who has access to the world's best nutritionists would cause him to be injury prone? Sounds a lot like bro science to me

QuincyAbeyie

Never heard about broscience, but after googling it it's definitely a term I need in my life.

JazzG

Captain wrote:
Holding is nowhere near as good as his reputation seems to have grown.

Agreed, people go on about him returning like he'll be peak Koscielny. I'd go as far as saying I'm not even sure he will make it here.

Claudius

Quincy Abeyie wrote:
Never heard about broscience, but after googling it it's definitely a term I need in my life.

I love it

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