Dembele's case is a bit different in my opinion. Did he really develop at Dortmund? He was only there for one season and did everything he could to leave there. He would've done the same thing here.

Yeah but we’d at least be 100m richer.

goon wrote:

Yeah but we’d at least be 100m richer.

Fair point. 

I doubt Wenger would get that much money for Dembele though, considering the fees we get for our best players in the past. I recently read that Klopp helped Dortmund by he telling them that he won't be selling Coutinho in the summer. He then told them to ask Barca for more money for Dembele.

It's like this Malcom, Wenger will stump at the asking price, but with the right development he will be worth double what we pay for him in a few years. Same age as Dembele too, but Wenger is too slow to react.

Ray wrote:

It's like this Malcom, Wenger will stump at the asking price, but with the right development he will be worth double what we pay for him in a few years. Same age as Dembele too, but Wenger is too slow to react.

here is my biggest worry. which players have we purchased, in the last 5-10 years, who improved considerably after coming to arsenal? lets go back to 2008-2009

ramsey - he was very raw. hes shown flashes of brilliance, and even though he has deficiencies in his game, if he could stay fit he'd be a starter here
nasri - he improved a bit, and was then sold
bischoff - lol no

vermaelen - after his initial purple patch, he regressed and was sold
sam galindo - lol no

chamakh - lol no
kos - yes, he improved after he came here
miyaichi - lol no
wellington - lol no
ebecilio - lol no

jenkinson - not really
toral - no
bellerin - yes, i guess, but hes still a pretty awful defender
gervinho - no
oxlade-chamberlain - did he improve at arsenal? i dont know.
campbell - no
park and santos - haha
mertesacker and areteta - they were already finished products
eisfeld - no

podolski, giroud, cazorla, monreal - all finished products

sanogo - lmao
ozil - was a finished product

alexis - finished product
debuchy - has somehow gotten worse
ospina - finished product
chambers - hasnt improved
welbeck - no
bielik - tbd
gabriel - regressed, has already been sold

jeff - has stalled
cech - has regressed
elneny - no/has regressed

xhaka - has regressed
holding - appears to be regressing
lucas - appeared to regress, was loaned/is already gone
mustafi - has regressed

you can quibble with a few of those if you want. but really, how many players have gotten significantly better since coming to arsenal?

I think Ozil and Alexis have become better. They may have become better where ever they would have gone but definitely they have improved here in my opinion. Some of the names on that list should just not be part of this discussion. It suits the argument that we don't develop players anymore.

Wenger doesn't develop young players if anything he makes them worse with the pressure he put them under, hence Griezmann definitely made the right choice to ignore the Arsenal calls. Having said that we need to be signing highly rated young players now for the new manager to have a side to develop ala Klopp after taking over from Rodgers.

Another way to look at player development is to look at which players that are coveted by many teams. There's not many besides Alexis and Ozil. No one goes crazy over the homegrown talent we have.

I think the club has to find a better way to pitch to these highly rated young players. For example, we weren't going to beat Dortmund's pitch of "you can be the next Dembele and here's the #7 shirt" to Jadon Sancho.

mdgoonah41 wrote:

Ray wrote:

It's like this Malcom, Wenger will stump at the asking price, but with the right development he will be worth double what we pay for him in a few years. Same age as Dembele too, but Wenger is too slow to react.

here is my biggest worry. which players have we purchased, in the last 5-10 years, who improved considerably after coming to arsenal? lets go back to 2008-2009

ramsey - he was very raw. hes shown flashes of brilliance, and even though he has deficiencies in his game, if he could stay fit he'd be a starter here
nasri - he improved a bit, and was then sold
bischoff - lol no

vermaelen - after his initial purple patch, he regressed and was sold
sam galindo - lol no

chamakh - lol no
kos - yes, he improved after he came here
miyaichi - lol no
wellington - lol no
ebecilio - lol no

jenkinson - not really
toral - no
bellerin - yes, i guess, but hes still a pretty awful defender
gervinho - no
oxlade-chamberlain - did he improve at arsenal? i dont know.
campbell - no
park and santos - haha
mertesacker and areteta - they were already finished products
eisfeld - no

podolski, giroud, cazorla, monreal - all finished products

sanogo - lmao
ozil - was a finished product

alexis - finished product
debuchy - has somehow gotten worse
ospina - finished product
chambers - hasnt improved
welbeck - no
bielik - tbd
gabriel - regressed, has already been sold

jeff - has stalled
cech - has regressed
elneny - no/has regressed

xhaka - has regressed
holding - appears to be regressing
lucas - appeared to regress, was loaned/is already gone
mustafi - has regressed

you can quibble with a few of those if you want. but really, how many players have gotten significantly better since coming to arsenal?

what a fucking depressing list. Even sadder that it's entirely true.

ManU have appearenlty offered a Henrikh Mkhitaryan swap for sanchez. He's in horrid form but Jose does tend to do that to attacking midfielders. Most of them never recover so it's a big risk.

Rashford or they can sod off.

Ricky1985 wrote:

Rashford or they can sod off.

Jose would lovr to get sanchez for Micky and then sign ozil for free in the summer. United would instantly be light years ahead of us. I think pogba will shine in a B2B role with ozil ahead of him and Matic beside/behind him.

We would look like fools if Ozil and Sanchez both ended up at United. I would never forgive our imbeciles. I don’t want any of their rejects.

Yay! Bidding war! We are going to make a lot of money folks. Sir Chips gonna love it

I would rather give him to City for free than to United for £30m.

Must be tempting for Wenger if the reported 25m + Mikhi is true. Much more attractive than City's 20m bid.

Quincy Abeyie wrote:

I would rather give him to City for free than to United for £30m.

agreed.

Lol. I'm guessing you guys aren't on the Arsenal board.

... who are more likely to give Sanchez to City and Ozil to United. Make everybody happy. Wouldn’t want a morose Mourinho

I'm gonna be livid if we sign Mkhitaryan under any circumstances.

Depends how you view your economics. In my view, it’s better to get nothing and push for 4th, and try to get that Champions League prize money, which last year was 54m pounds. Contrast that with United who won 16m pounds for winning the Europa League last year. It makes much more economic sense to keep Sanchez, and push to get back into Champions League. And you’re in much better position for kit and other negotiations than a team that is spending a second straight season in Europa League. And then he can go anywhere he wants in June.

That we are creating uncertainty around this is so incredible. We should have been very definitive last summer “Both men will see out their contracts and we are not entertaining any bids. End of story.” Done.

Problem with that fantasy is that Sanchez is playing like a man who has already checked out.

I think because we don’t set the boundaries with our players, it creates the space for them to act the fool. If we had clearly outlined to Sanchez and his agent that they had signed a contract, one that rewards them both immensely, and they must respect it as it takes two to break it, then they would have been under no illusions. We could have given the market certainty that come January he could sign a pre-contract under Bosman with a foreign club in January or move to an English club in June, but he would be playing for us until end June.

That said, I do think where we really fucked up was our lack of ambition last summer. If we had just signed some big players last summer, we probably would have been able to secure at least one extension, and that might have then facilated the other. Bringing in just Lacazette was the death knell of the Ozil and Sanchez talks.

Claudius wrote:

Depends how you view your economics. In my view, it’s better to get nothing and push for 4th, and try to get that Champions League prize money, which last year was 54m pounds. Contrast that with United who won 16m pounds for winning the Europa League last year. It makes much more economic sense to keep Sanchez, and push to get back into Champions League. And you’re in much better position for kit and other negotiations than a team that is spending a second straight season in Europa League. And then he can go anywhere he wants in June.

That we are creating uncertainty around this is so incredible. We should have been very definitive last summer “Both men will see out their contracts and we are not entertaining any bids. End of story.” Done.

well its obviously a very complicated question.

a.) future money that comes from getting 4th or winning the europra league, all things you presume are more realistic if we keep sanchez, also relies on a lot of luck. sanchez could play really well, we could make it to the europa league final, and we could lose on a dodgy penalty decision. if that happens, he leaves on a free, we finish 5th and we dont win the europa league final. so, no CL bonus. we are currently second favorite to win the europa league at 6/1, behind atletico, who is 9/2. i think thats generous, to be honest.

b.) so, to claim that CL bonus money of £54m, we need a lot to go right. if we take £25m for him today, that £25m is guaranteed.

c.) how will that £25m impact our summer business? for example. lets say we currently have £100m available to buy players in the summer. does having £25m extra allow us to sign 1 additional top player? it might. if we actually have £200m to spend, not counting the £25m from alexis, then does that £25m really make a big difference? maybe, but maybe not.

d.) i dont believe we have £200m to spend. or even £100m. we are still cheap. we spent about £46m on lacazette. we brought in about £75m on transfers (gibbs, woj, gabriel, ox)...another profit made.

so, does the £25m matter? who fucking knows. i dont even care at this point. i am not optimistic that wenger will overhaul the squad this summer and fix the glaring deficiencies. im not confident he'd do that if he had £100m to spend, £200m to spend, or £500m to spend.

until he goes, or until most his power is stripped away, we're a rudderless ship, drifting in the night.

Claudius wrote:

I think because we don’t set the boundaries with our players, it creates the space for them to act the fool. If we had clearly outlined to Sanchez and his agent that they had signed a contract, one that rewards them both immensely, and they must respect it as it takes two to break it, then they would have been under no illusions. We could have given the market certainty that come January he could sign a pre-contract under Bosman with a foreign club in January or move to an English club in June, but he would be playing for us until end June.

That said, I do think where we really fucked up was our lack of ambition last summer. If we had just signed some big players last summer, we probably would have been able to secure at least one extension, and that might have then facilated the other. Bringing in just Lacazette was the death knell of the Ozil and Sanchez talks.

I don't see any motivation from January to May and, to be honest, from august to january. His agent will have felt everything out since summer, so barring something drastic like a broken leg - once his mind is made up, he has checked out.

The only solid thing is to sell players with two years left, but you're going to have a hell of time convincing your fans that it was a great idea to sell a potential player of the year that far out. It's lose/lose. Personally, i would have just shifted him in the summer, but we're not that club. 

Hey, like your thinking. Under scenario (a), that is 25m guaranteed with almost no probability that we are in Champions League next year and, as mentioned, that likely has a knock on effect in next few years. So you model a probability for next year, and a smaller p for the following years. And then you need to model the fact that this increased chance that you are outside CL for the foreseeable future hits your deals. Perhaps that is 30-40m pounds season across sponsorships over 4-5 seasons, multiplied by your probability. I hope we have a team that can help them model the scenarios and the associated values and probabilities much more thoroughly. But I do think that not competing any given season is a serious mistake for this club. One we have chosen to make over and over.

Unfortunately, I also fear that last summer was the last big fork in the road moment, and we fucked up royally by not simultaneously going big in the transfer market and extending Ozil/Sanchez. Given the contract situation we have, and the finite funds, I find it very difficult to imagine a scenario now where we lose Ozil and Sanchez, shed all the old players, and replace them with enough super quality players that we can immediately be a top 4 challenger in the 2018-19 season. It will be the 2019-20 season at best and maybe even the 2020-21 season before we can use our business revenues to build back up to

arsenal have released an official statement on alexis given that ornstein is basically an arsenal spokesman

Nah, Arsenal wouldn't tell him to write that Malcom is our number one choice for a replacement.

if a suitable offer "arrives"

Still don't know why even City would pay £30m ish for a player who will be free in the summer.

It's not like they are struggling to win the league and he won't be eligible to play in CL (or will he?)

y va marquer wrote:

if a suitable offer "arrives"

Still don't know why even City would pay £30m ish for a player who will be free in the summer.

It's not like they are struggling to win the league and he won't be eligible to play in CL (or will he?)

two reasons:

1. he can be registered for the CL. you can register 1 player who played in the europra league in your CL squad
2. they might feel that if they get him in now, the can convince him to sign long term. PSG and united are also apparently interested, they basically get 6 months to convince him his long term future is at city.

Plus the Jesus injury may be worse than expected and that leaves them with only Aguero, who isn't the most reliable on the injury front either.