Trumpism: Page 4 - The Arsenal discussion community: One More in the Tolly

Trumpism

Qwiss

y va marquer wrote:
What I see right now is the Trump camp's drive to take down the media outlets that they cannot control.
Thrashing and undermining publications that will question and challenge him.

Thats why news outlets need to be careful. Printing unsubstantiated stories about prostitutes pissing on each other only helps Trumps and his team discredit the media.

y va marquer

Once more:

That the evidence is not convincing does not make this assertion of yours true:
"None of the intelligence agencies EVEN ATTEMPT to provide evidence...."
The report is exactly that "an attempt" to provide evidence.

And again, regarding The Gaurdian and core journalistic principles of fact checking:

It's a short news article that informs of the existence of a report* criticised by experts which purports to prove that Russian backed hackers hacked areas of the Democratic Party in 2016.

The article does not state anywhere that it is proof that Russian government-sponsored hacking groups actually did what the report claimed**.

*Fact checked - the report exists, they even attached it
** "ALLEGEDLY Russian government-sponsored hacking groups"

y va marquer

Qwiss! wrote:
y va marquer wrote:
What I see right now is the Trump camp's drive to take down the media outlets that they cannot control.
Thrashing and undermining publications that will question and challenge him.

Thats why news outlets need to be careful. Printing unsubstantiated stories about prostitutes pissing on each other only helps Trumps and his team discredit the media.

They've been discrediting the media way before this.

I mean Trump actually denied that he mocked the disabled reporter even though he is clearly doing so on camera, in front of an audience, and Kelly Anne tells us not to listen to what he is saying or doing but just know that in his heart there is love.
And then he slams media for being "dishonest" in reporting the whole thing.
I mean ffs, it's beyond depressing that this piece of unabashedly lying dirt is days away from being president.

flobaba

"So this is how democracy dies... With thunderous applause"

Qwiss

y va marquer wrote:
Qwiss! wrote:
Thats why news outlets need to be careful. Printing unsubstantiated stories about prostitutes pissing on each other only helps Trumps and his team discredit the media.

They've been discrediting the media way before this.

I mean Trump actually denied that he mocked the disabled reporter even though he is clearly doing so on camera, in front of an audience, and Kelly Anne tells us not to listen to what he is saying or doing but just know that in his heart there is love.
And then he slams media for being "dishonest" in reporting the whole thing.
I mean ffs, it's beyond depressing that this piece of unabashedly lying dirt is days away from being president.

Yes but when you play into that with outlandish unsubstantiated stories the people who respond to Trump look at it it and think "he's right, can't trust them". If he says one thing and you show him lying you chip away at that notion. Buzzfeed are greedy shits who wanted clicks and have no journalistic standards. They're a nothing organisation who are better suited to 12 Cool Kim and Kanye moments of 2016 yet their irresponsible publishing of this story will be used to tar all non Trump supporting media with the same brush. They're helping Trump.

y va marquer

Well I haven't been putting buzzfeed forward as an example of a reputable news organisation who care about the veracity of what they print.
If it disappeared off the face of the Internet tomorrow it would not matter.
I only brought them up to illustrate that even they clarified that the Trump Moscow hotel story was unverified and possibly unverifiable.

Lumping buzzfeed in with media outlets, tjose that do have some sense of integrity and respect for their profession, just because none of them support Trump, is downright bizarre.
Akin to viewing Waterford Whispers in the same way as The Irish Times - just makes no sense.

I can't believe that people that I consider reasonable fall in with what Trump says the media are doing, as opposed to actually reading what the various publications have actually written on this subject.

What's helping Trump is that people are listening to his spin and even those who don't support him are seeing those who speak against him as one homogenous mass of media.

That's not the reality.

It's going to get to the situation whereby anti-Trump articles will be treated with suspicion 😆
That's not the fault of the people who have been on his case, that's a reflection on how powerful he is in terms of having his spin seep into general consciousness.

y va marquer

Oh and the Moscow hotel story is completely unsubstantiated but I fail to see how it's "outlandish" in relation to Trump or any other bloated ancient millionaire.
Especially when the man in question is on record boasting about how his position grants him the power to do anything he wants.

Qwiss

y va marquer wrote:
Oh and the Moscow hotel story is completely unsubstantiated but I fail to see how it's "outlandish" in relation to Trump or any other bloated ancient millionaire.
Especially when the man in question is on record boasting about how his position grants him the power to do anything he wants.

And that's how fake news works.

y va marquer

It isn't.
Given that I would not say the story is true.

Just pointing out that your throwaway comment that the story is "outlandish" as in extraordinary or inconceivable ignores certain facts about Trump and the modus operandi of the Russian powers that be.

Again that's not to say that it's true but it's overstating the point to say it's outlandish

Qwiss

Fake news works on 2 levels (although I'm not sure this is fake news but I've certainly seen no evidence yet). The first level is obvious, people believe it out right. The second just keeps reinforcing and exaggerating an existing id a of someone. You take Hillary for instance, people found her untrustworthy for various genuine reasons but fake news added to and exaggerated that with stories about how she had a load of politically dangerous friends and colleagues assassinated. Or that she was part of a paedophile ring. A minority believe it outright but others say "well it seems like something that could happen" and it adds to the general perception and feeling about her. It's the same with Trump here. This seems so like something he could do that it just adds to our general perception of him as a creepy, power mad weirdo. This is all dominating the press while he's still not removing his personal business interests from his presidency, while he tries to push Tillerson through and while Republicans are repealing Obamacare.

flobaba

The Americans can finally return to Mother Russia. Mission accomplished.

y va marquer

Qwiss! wrote:
Fake news works on 2 levels (although I'm not sure this is fake news but I've certainly seen no evidence yet). The first level is obvious, people believe it out right. The second just keeps reinforcing and exaggerating an existing id a of someone. You take Hillary for instance, people found her untrustworthy for various genuine reasons but fake news added to and exaggerated that with stories about how she had a load of politically dangerous friends and colleagues assassinated. Or that she was part of a paedophile ring. A minority believe it outright but others say "well it seems like something that could happen" and it adds to the general perception and feeling about her. It's the same with Trump here. This seems so like something he could do that it just adds to our general perception of him as a creepy, power mad weirdo. This is all dominating the press while he's still not removing his personal business interests from his presidency, while he tries to push Tillerson through and while Republicans are repealing Obamacare.

Fake news stories are passed off as fact, nowhere in a fake news story does the author refer to there being doubt about what is being presented as fact.
Fake news stories are generally spread on media such as facebook and the original source and origin is never clear.

Prime example:

News outlets that report the EXISTENCE of memos that detail Trump in compromised positions in a Moscow hotel room are not lying.
The memos exist.
The news outlets who chose to print the memos eg buzzfeed made it clear that we were in the realm of allegations, that the information in the memos was unverified and unverifiable.

While I question their motivation and the consequences of their decision I think it's wrong to accept Trumps screaming accusation that it was fake news.
It blurs the distinction between what is actually fake news and a poor and cynical editorial decision.
We are now in a position where people who should know the difference between what is fake news and poor journalism are a accepting them as being one and the same.
We're in an arena where subtlety, nuance, and points that define the nature and meaning of what we read are being thrashed by an orange ignoramus in 140 characters.

Qwiss

I don't think Buzzfeed adding that its alleged makes it OK. Its poor journalistic standards and thats why no credible paper or site published it before them.

Qwiss

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/12/buzzfeed-was-wrong-to-publish-the-trump-rumours-heres-why

y va marquer

Did I said it made it OK?
No, I said I questioned motivation and thought it a poor and cynical editorial decision.
It is not "fake news" though unless we are to redefine "fake news" to include articles in which it is clearly stated that content is unverified in the same category as articles where content is
entirely and deliberately fabricated.

jones

Qwiss! wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/12/buzzfeed-was-wrong-to-publish-the-trump-rumours-heres-why

I'm not sure why BuzzFeed is even considered a news website. On the other hand great opportunity of course for all these self-righteous assholes to present themselves as the defenders of The Truth against jokers like Ben Smith.

Klaus

The publication was horseshit, which is why no one else would touch it. Buzzfeed were basically doing what Fox did the entire election though when they were running with their 'corrupt Hillary' narrative without backing it up with a shred of evidence. The difference is that Fox are a couple orders of magnitude bigger and actually pretend to be proper journalists as opposed to the propaganda tool they de facto are.

y va marquer

Fox News toadying up to Trump the birther in chief, no fear he's ever going to call them out over publishing "fake news"

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/01/13/sean-hannity-left-wing-media-stunned-that-trump-hits-back.html

mags

Donald Trump is the godfather of fake news.

Burnwinter

All of these propaganda techniques are as old as the hills.

Qwiss! wrote:
Fake news works on 2 levels (although I'm not sure this is fake news but I've certainly seen no evidence yet).

There's at least one more, which is that the prevalence of lies and propaganda in the media generally devalues and casts doubt on everything out there that happens to be true.

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