UK Politics Omnishambles: Page 155 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One more in the Tolly

UK Politics Omnishambles

awooga83

Burnwinter exactly, too often the people who vote for these things always blame others no they have to own the outcome of their actions. They want people to be different stop voting for these types of people especially the likes of Farage who are clearly deceitful. If you vote for that stop talking about being let down and acknowledge you have contributed to this happening. Not happy with your politicians look to yourself to see what standards you demonstrate you care about when you vote.

Burnwinter

awooga83 I'll be honest, I don't think the man in the street is all that dumb, but it seems voters quite often get a "free pass" by playing dumb.

I reckon most people are aware that Farage (or Trump, etc) aren't very serious about delivering them a better life. That's public knowledge by now. So why do these figures appeal?

Well, for some it's a case of being angry with the state of things and voting for the guy who seems most likely to fuck the state of things up. I can understand that bit.

But for some there's a separate sick logic of enjoyment of the spectacle of outsiders, migrants, marginalised people and others being punished.

For these people, the more the state punishes others, the more these sick bastards feel like those others must deserve what they're getting. It's like Du Bois's "Poor Whites", the peckerwoods that used to hold the whip out in the plantation cotton fields—but the person doesn't have to be white these days, so long as they're not getting whipped, or they get to see someone else whipped and know it won't be them.

jones

JazzG cause criminal damage to military bases and defence companies.

Can someone please think of the poor fucking defence companies.

Burnwinter

jones Can you imagine what the line item breakdown of that "£7m damage" would look like?

OEM single use fuselage panel grease removal sponges: um ... £200,000 ... wait, no, that's too round a number ... £213,177 ...

JazzG

Coombs I don't seem to think anything, I am just saying they meet the legal criteria so have been proscribed, surely the government needs to follow it is own laws? If you are right then and they have been incorrectly proscribed they should fight this in the courts and surely this will be overturned. From an article "According to the Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre, the group has conducted three separate and overt terror attacks within the UK. Legal proceedings, involving serious acts of violence, are ongoing." Sounds like there is a pretty valid reason for their proscription from that.

Burnwinter 👍️

RocktheCasbah So the group who plan and organise these attacks should not be punished but only the people who carried it out should?

There are far right groups that wouldn't meet that definition of being like the Birmingham bombers either. Should the government overturn their proscription as well? If PA meet the legal definition than the government aren't doing anything wrong.

jones 👍️

jones

Burnwinter them sponges and 6.8m worth of Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet replacements.

Coombs

JazzG I am just saying they meet the legal criteria so have been proscribed, surely the government needs to follow it is own laws?

The point of these protests is for the government to change its policies. Legal challenges in courts are just one way laws and policies are changed in democracies. Old ladies getting arrested for supporting Palestine Action demonstrate the ridiculousness of those policies and that's precisely the point. That's what makes it a demonstration and what makes it part of the political toolset for effecting change.

RocktheCasbah

JazzG So the group who plan and organise these attacks should not be punished but only the people who carried it out should?

I guess it depends whether you think they're terrorists or not. I'm not so sure you do, you referred to criminal damage so much in the post I replied to, it reminded me of Homer Simpson talking about the movie Speed! 😁

But as I also said, it was late and I was tired, so maybe it's just my brain.

Tam

JazzG I don't seem to think anything, I am just saying they meet the legal criteria so have been proscribed, surely the government needs to follow it is own laws? If you are right then and they have been incorrectly proscribed they should fight this in the courts and surely this will be overturned. From an article "According to the Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre, the group has conducted three separate and overt terror attacks within the UK. Legal proceedings, involving serious acts of violence, are ongoing." Sounds like there is a pretty valid reason for their proscription from that.

When it was Partey's rape allegations you refused to take a principled stand against Partey/the club because we didn't have both sides and it hadn't been proven in court, largely because you knew someone who had faced malicious allegations of sexual assault. We don't have both sides to this, and nothing has been proven about PA in court related to terrorist action, yet you're more than willing to condemn them and consider them a terrorist organisation. In fact we don't have any information on the mysterious matters that have led to PA being proscribed at all as far as I can see. All this despite your own words showing you to believe they partake in criminal damage rather than terrorist action.

What's the difference here?

JazzG

awooga83 I don't disagree with you, I've seen little to suggest that Farage has any answers for this countries problems. People are sick of the current mainstream politicians and Farage has filled that vacuum. I just hope that by the next election someone gets their act together or we are in for a rougher time.

JazzG

Coombs So if a far right group got a bunch of old ladies to protest for them would you still be calling these policies ridiculous?

This is just a tactic being employed to overwhelm the courts and try to gather public sympathy, good on the government for holding their ground otherwise others will start doing the same.

Burnwinter

Hey JazzG! The Israeli state has just tried unilaterally to assassinate the entire Hamas delegation sent to Doha to continue ceasefire negotiations. Yes, that's right, they just bombed the shit out of Doha without warning. Well, I'm sure the United States was given five minutes' warning. Fortunately, they fucked up.

Don't worry, old mate, I know. The Israeli state is Britain's conscience in the Middle East. Totally decent behaviour to keep shipping them arms for profit.

Now, there is the small detail of two thirds of the UK public opposing the IDF action in Gaza.

But never mind, the UK is a true democracy! The next general election to choose between the parties that both endorsed this war will be as soon as 2029!

Or maybe, if the UK is very lucky in 2029, there will be a new, really racist party to vote for, that says it opposes this war or whatever's left of it, but actually supports it!

Won't that be fun?! No need to get impatient and start throwing red paint around! Don't be terrorists, kids! Be good-erists!

Coombs

JazzG So if a far right group got a bunch of old ladies to protest for them would you still be calling these policies ridiculous?

If they were proscribed on spurious grounds, sure. But that wouldn't happen, because no old ladies would turn out for them and their beliefs are flimsy and founded on nothing but petulance.

I don't think you could tell your left from your right, to be honest. You're implying that Palestine Action is 'far left', which indicates that they are somehow extremists. If anything, recent events have definitively proved otherwise. They have much broader support than any extreme or fringe view could have. They aren't far-anything. They are more comparable to being Brexiteers or MAGA than they are to the KKK or neo-Nazis.

And before you start digging up individual people's histories or whatever, the same can be done for the crooks and phonies that form the movements you seem so keen on. It's not an effective criticism. It's a typical mistake of fascists to think that leaders are the movements they lead. Better to follow the followers.

jones

Starting to think @JazzG doesn't believe what he says and these are sparring sessions for him. I mean this is some wild shit to say but ngl I admire the stamina

JazzG

jones 💪

JazzG

That attack probably has little to nothing to do with UK, sounds like Trump green lit it after Hamas allegedly not agreeing to release hostages and agree ceasefire. That is what I've seen so far but just seen it on my feed now so no idea how true this is. Hopefully Qatar can cease their assets and send some money back to the people who are starving in Palestine while their leaders live in luxury.

The days of the UK having strong foreign influence are long gone, this country can't even fucking sort itself out let alone influence others!

Burnwinter

JazzG That attack probably has little to nothing to do with UK

I'm not saying it did. I'm saying a rogue state that shells diplomatic delegations and murders tens of thousands of civilians shouldn't be sold weapons broadly against the will of the UK public.

You've disappointed me. We rarely see eye to eye, but I'm dismayed you're digging in to defend this campaign of ethnic cleansing.

It's a topic we only got onto in the first place because you decided support for Palestine Action was a legitimate reason to condemn the trans teenager Glinner's been stalking. Very strange notion by itself, condemning a teenager for having ideals.

And I don't get why you pretend you don't understand the law is there to be changed under extra-electoral pressure in any democracy. In other situations you call in all the moral imperatives you can think of to defend riots.

Nor can I tell why you're writing as if the mainstream view of horror about the slaughter in Gaza is extreme, when it's shared by a majority despite the steady efforts of the media apparatus.

This is serious stuff. A hundred thousand civilians lie dead, many buried under rubble. Gaza is completely destroyed, it makes Warsaw or Dresden in 1945 look like Camelot. This conflict (I won't call it a war) is more brutal in human terms than when Yugoslavia came apart at the seams when we were kids.

There's no defensible reason the UK should continue dealing weapons to a nation like Israel that's off its hinges. Nor to condemn the people brave enough to speak up or do something. The only reasons are graft.

Qwiss

JazzG and send some money back to the people who are starving in Palestine

How would do they do that? Here's what happens when you try to bring aid to Gaza

JazzG

I'm not implying anything, you are just making your own assumptions.

The reality is that to the supporters of Palestine Action, the right to free speech is entirely dependent on who is trying to exercise it. If you're a middle-class, self-styled progressive, defiance of the law in pursuit of your beliefs is a birth-right. If you're a working-class mother concerned about the safety of your daughter following an attack by an illegal migrant – not so much. Engage in entirely legal, peaceful protest and you stand accused of peddling 'division' and 'hate'.

I think that quote perfectly sums up these people showing up at the PA protests.

Qwiss

JazzG that quote sums up you. You want free speech when people say "beat up a trans person" or "Muslims are all evil" but you want it quashed when people say "lets stop arming the country murdering thousands of children".

The idea that the protesters aren't working class is utterly ludicrous as well. Most of them are working class.

JazzG

Burnwinter I'm not defending anything, I don't think I've made a single comment in this thread about what is going on in Gaza. The images that are coming out are absolutely horrifying. Groups like PA however are not going to make any difference, there have been pro Palestine protests every other week since it all broke out and I don't think I've said they shouldn't be allowed to do so?

Coombs I'm a fascist now am I, the problem with throwing around terms like that is they lose their meaning but then again I don't actually give a shit what you think about me anyway. I thought you said were gonna stop responding to me a while back yet here you are again.

Qwiss

I haven't really looked into this but a quick search contradicts their claim. Both sides are going to be putting out their own stories so probably best to wait a few days before coming to any firm conclusion. I do agree that aid is not getting in quick enough, that is something which clearly not acceptable.

-- Pile on? Apart from Coombs no real nasty comments here, I'm a big boy I can handle it! We are having a discussion where my views are different to theirs, that is life and that is what should happen on forums. Rather than all of us being sheep and just nodding along to each other. I don't need anyone to back me up nor am I person to go along with what the majority says. I don't have any Twitter friends, my only internet friends are you lot 😉

I am quite comfortable with my views and sources, if you don't agree with me that is ok but don't give me shit like read stronger or better articulated views. I am also happy to admit if I was wrong, if it turns out PA haven't done anything wrong and wrongly proscribed I'll admit it.

--

Eh, I don't usually have much to say in this thread, but this is a pile on.

Yo, @JazzG , don't you have any mates to back you up? From Twitter or something? Ask them to join the forum bro.

Honestly want to read some stronger / better articulated arguments in favor of some of the positions you take. Unless Jones is right and you're really just taking the piss. Your heart doesn't seem in it.

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