One More on the Telly: Page 222 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

One More on the Telly

Gazza M

I wasn't sure how succession would play out in the home stretch, but they are absolutely knocking it out of the park so far. the last few episodes have been peak tv. there's an emotional wallop in virtually every other scene. Emmy sweep incoming, 100%

Qwiss

Burnwinter What I'm enjoying about the show at this stage is it's not focused on plot twists or sudden revelations

No its just crushing inevitably.

When the show opened and Roman is so cocky practising his speech you knew what was coming, then he continues on acting aloof but you know when he gets really into the sex jokes that he's losing it a bit and by the time he tells Frank that he's "pre-grieved" you know exactly how the eulogy is going to go. And fuck me, I thought throughout Culkin was the weakest of the 3 main kids but he was tremendous in this episode. As was Sarah Snook. Definitely Emmy submissions for those 2 I think.

I do still wonder if there will be one last twist involving Colin and the waiter who died in England. I do hope not though

QuincyAbeyie

That was a perfect ending for me.

One criticism keeps popping up, but I don't agree with it. It wasn't needed.
which is that some think we needed a scene before to sell Shiv changing her mind. She made the logical choice. She's never thought Ken was a good CEO. The only reason it took a while for her to re-realize it was that she was angry at Mattson and Tom.

Burnwinter

That was a brilliant ending. Really the last few episodes have had so much logic that seemed inevitable just as it unfolded. I predicted quite a bit of the final act, but that felt right.

For me this ending with its coalescence of several seasons' emotional heft in such a dense, rich, torrid finale that felt fully plausible, almost as if nothing was a twist … that was great writing. The writing probably eclipses the big shows of the "prestige" era with that cohesion—perhaps not MAD MEN, but it's way, way ahead of THE SOPRANOS or BREAKING BAD.

QuincyAbeyie some think we needed a scene before to sell Shiv changing her mind. She made the logical choice.

I didn't read her as making that choice based on logic. She was sitting in the meeting and the emotional impact of letting Ken have CEO hit her, and she couldn't do it. "You wouldn't be good at it" comes after, and is true, and is absolutely substantiated by the fracas that follows. But if you insert a scene to "motivate" her change of heart, you remove the truth: her motive is always having been second, always having to listen to "I'm the eldest boy!". And then the ghost of her unborn child, Logan's grandchild, the true "successor" for whom the violence of being born into such a family grimly awaits, brings it all home.

There will be so much said about it anyway, there was such a wealth of callbacks to every torment there's been in the whole show in that episode, but damn …

QuincyAbeyie

Burnwinter
Fair, but when she stormed out of the meeting, I'd assume she hadn't decided yet. Not that it matters much - I guess the point is that none of us think the choice came out of nowhere, which the criticism seems to imply.

I don't think I can put Succession over Better Call Saul, even though it was more entertaining. I feel sorry for the latter, which will now probably end its six-season run without a Primetime Emmy because timing is everything.

Burnwinter

QuincyAbeyie I don't think I can put Succession over Better Call Saul

Fair play, I have never watched it. I find it pretty hard to imagine it's up there, but I know everyone adores it. I am definitely in the grip of some overpowering one hour old recency bias here.

Burnwinter

QuincyAbeyie Fair, but when she stormed out of the meeting, I'd assume she hadn't decided yet.

I would have to re-watch it, but it seemed to me Shiv began to feel, overwhelmingly, the deeper emotional parameters of the situation and, prior to reason or making any sort of decision, she just couldn't proceed to the "no". Her reaction might even have been set off by Rome's bullied, pathetic, squirmed out "nope" … no doubt as familiar from childhood as the scene in which Kendall presses on Roman's wound until he submits. And Ken really is a prick who shouldn't be CEO. They played a little trick by putting Shiv in that deciding seat at the far end of the table …

Burnwinter

It hadn't even occurred to me until now that Shiv's pregnancy has been a reconfiguration of the whole concept of succession, one that shouts out to the antique dramas of imperial succession and the adjacent tragedy, but now it has it's clear the writers have had all that thought through for at least this whole season … wow.

I thought after his brutal defeat Ken might suicide or return to using drugs, but really, it didn't need to be shown to us. He's been out in the waves all season, and whenever he has entered the sea and it has enveloped him, it has liberated him—including in that scene on the pontoon in this episode—and filled him with the thought that finally, he would win. And it's been fairly plain that to bring home the tragedy they'd have to destroy Kendall. So instead it all ends with Ken staring out into the waters, their cool embrace right out of his reach.

Daz

Fantastic ending to a brilliant show. I'd say more but don't know how to do spoilers 😁

goon

Superb finale.

In terms of nailing character detail and development and staying true to it, the only show that I can think of that rivals it is The Sopranos.

Poor Ken 😆

RocktheCasbah

goon In terms of nailing character detail and development and staying true to it, the only show that I can think of that rivals it is The Sopranos.

I think also The Shield falls into that category. If you haven't seen it (forgive me if you have). My mate's Ben description of it as starting in a downward spiral and then, just when you think it can't get any worse, it does, still rings true today. It's a similarly Shakespearean tragedy, albeit not quite as well written as Succession was. But the ending for the main characters is absolutely in line with what we've learned about them all across the 7 seasons of the show's run.

Gazza M

fantastic ending. up there with some of HBOs best offerings. everyone got what they deserved in the end

Qwiss

Ending was ok. This season was probably the 2nd best season, season 2 being the best.

RocktheCasbah

I think the ending was pretty truthful to the story which had been told previously and the characters and their motivations. Nobody can have watched that ending and been like "Oh, I didn't see that coming!" and that, to me, is a good thing. A great thing, maybe.

Qwiss

RocktheCasbah I think where they landed was pretty much spot on, not entirely sold on every bit of how they got there but I enjoyed the episode none the less. I just don't see it as perfect or one of the best finales ever, etc

One thing that bugged was the little epilogue with Shiv, when she's in the car with Tom. It plays out like a power shift, like he's the king now and she has to deal with that but he's just a CEO and shes still an heiress who is vastly more wealthy than he is. In fact the reality that they are all fine and still ridiculously rich is ignored completely. Even with Ken, he's desperate in the boardroom and at the end its played out like he has nothing now but we've seen him just a few weeks ago when he already thinks running Waystar is gone but he just goes and does something else, they all do and can again. And awful lot of this episode was overdone.

Burnwinter

Think the ending was far better than okay, largely because of that—it delivered on the character schemas which were developed with such clarity throughout. A proper tragic structure. Per Aristotle, after the turning point, the pain and grief are inescapable.

QuincyAbeyie

Qwiss

I think that fits right in, to be honest. That these people are billionaires obsessing over something that is in fact trivial in terms of actual consequences has always been a key part of the show, as in that even the worst case scenario for them is getting to live their lives as billionaires. Roman realized at the end that he didn't mind that. Tom got the job that Shiv had wanted all along, so the power shift was natural for me. It would feel more grating if they all suddenly realized the stupidness of their desperation, and that even if they don't get what they want, they'll have the ability to live an amazing life full of riches.

Burnwinter

Qwiss One thing that bugged was the little epilogue with Shiv, when she's in the car with Tom. It plays out like a power shift, like he's the king now and she has to deal with that but he's just a CEO and shes still an heiress who is vastly more wealthy than he is.

Isn't that the point? That none of the three of Caroline's kids is balanced enough to be able to accept "ridiculously rich" as their outcome is the crux of it. The show points this out all the time, and its perversity (or the capacity of this motive to transvaluate profitability itself) underpins the plot to block the Gojo deal. The final episode made sure to call back to the sorrowful, spiteful distance of both their maternal and paternal relationships. The Roy family's public rapacity corresponds to a private violence so damaging that wealth never outpaces its miserable constraints, and none of these adults will ever be happy or free—the image of that mini-epilogue for Shiv.

Claudius

Qwiss I think the main thing with Shiv isn’t about wealth. They’re all wealth. That’s irrelevant. It’s about power and adjacency to it. She’s never taken seriously in this world. And much of the last season is about how a woman doesn’t belong in this world. Shiv says of her father “he couldn’t hold a whole woman in his head”, and that is true of a lot of these men. Roman and Kendall completely overlook her in the their alliance, and Mattison uses her and tells her her pregnancy is an issue. So she is never gone to run a Waystar. She rather backs the father of her child than a brother who repulses her. They’re so beautifully self-destructive. What is so crazy is a rational outcome would have been them standing together and picking Tom - but they’re too blind to pick the one character who’s been doing all the work while they pretended to be businesspeople

Daz

QuincyAbeyie completely agree with this take. Qwiss, you're looking at this as a regular, non-billionaire jo when you need to see it through the eyes of these siblings

Qwiss

Burnwinter Thats all fine for how Kendell ends it. Although I'd argue even then it doesn't matter, in Italy he just wanted money to get out and move on but Logan denied him that. Now once he stops moping he'll be back in that spot and can do whatever else he wants. Thats Kendells cycle, try, fail, mope.

Shiv is similar in motivation but her going back to Tom still doesn't make sense to me. I've seen explanations and none ring true to me. "she wants to be close to power" Tom doesn't have any. "She wants a man like her Dad" he's clearly not that. "She's staying for the kid" we already see that she's going to be a mother like hers. Shiv back to Tom makes fuck all sense, its too casual and I don't buy it.

Look its still a great show and ok finale for me. It had some great scenes.

The cheese licking scene was brilliant. However the best scene was them all watching the video of Logan with Connor, Karl, Frank and Jerri. His warmth for them all, his respect and that he liked them. The kids enjoying it at first then the realisation they never had that, incredible.

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