Alfonso wrote:

Messi is the greatest club football ever but not the outright greatest.

Old debate but he really does need to perform properly in a WC for him to be considered against El Diego.

Until that happens I don't care if he scores 200 goals per season, Maradona will still be número uno.

In terms of legacy, the World Cup is still the holy grail but these days the level of competition, quality, investment and coaching is within club football and therefore a better indicator of ability.

Granted Messi needs that world cup to appeal to the wider masses but then the wider masses also think Beckham was one of the best players of all time.

I'm the biggest Ronaldo fan on this forum, but the stuff that Messi is doing in 2015 just puts him on a different level altogether. Maradona was nice, but he was no Messi

If I don't try to be too objective- Zidane.

But to be really impartial - Maradona.

Champions League is played at a higher level than the World Cup. Club football > international football.

As regards the "doing it for club V's doing it for country" debate, its worth bearing in mind that great players will often have to carry weak national sides but they never play in poor club sides.
Having good players around them make great players loot better, their passes are more likely to be finished and they get better passes.

If I wanna assess if a player is great or not, what they have achieved and who they have around them matters little. Could be a bloke playing for Hibs for all that matters.

It's much of a muchness with Maradona and Messi anyhow

Biggus wrote:

As regards the "doing it for club V's doing it for country" debate, its worth bearing in mind that great players will often have to carry weak national sides but they never play in poor club sides.
Having good players around them make great players loot better, their passes are more likely to be finished and they get better passes.

This is why I'd say Maradonna. He dragged teams to glory.

I agree with Ricky too, without Messi Barca wouldn't have been much over the last 7 or so years. Its when Messi plays with Argentina though, still a side of excellent players but he can't drag them on as Maradonna did. In fact Messi has never really had a great World Cup and you need that to be declared the Best Player Ever.

I must say though, that Enrique seems to have got Messi to enjoy his football again. Last couple of years he was still racking up the numbers, but he didn't seem to LOVE playing. He was more like a machine, doing what needed to be done but not any more. Now he seems to have found that joy again and, for me, he is a lot more entertaining to watch.

Well being a machine is the very definition of a great player.
I'm sure most of us have played games where we were really up for it and played blinders, and then there were times where everything turned to shit, well great players are machines who turn it on week in week out regardless of how they feel or how the team is playing.

i only saw maradona play at the very end of his career, and i wont pretend that the few hours of youtube footage ive seen of him is enough for me to compare him to messi.

messi, zidane, ronaldo (brazil), henry, bergkamp, maldini, ronaldo (portugal), figo, rivaldo, and pirlo are the best players ive ever seen on a consistent, week in and week out basis. no point in me trying to compare them to pele, socrates, maradona and beckenbauer.

The needing a great world cup to be declared best player ever idea is out of touch with the current reality. As good as that German team at the World Cup was, they would lose to Real, Barcelona pretty much all the time, and probably to PSG, Chelsea etc most of the time. The quality of these teams is above that German team and far better than the teams Germany had to beat to win the World Cup.

To judge a player on 7 games that happen every four years when he is dominating over 50 games a season in often tougher circumstances is not right.

The best player EVER should be able to do it for 57 games. The World Cup is still the biggest competition in football even if its not the toughest. To be THE best player EVER you need to do it at club and international level.

Meh, that would only apply if the players compared were exactly equal at club level. Many lesser players than Messi have succeeded at international level and club level. To me it's ridiculous to think that if Argentina held on in the final and won on penalties Messi could be the best player ever, but since they didn't, he can't be.

The point is he didn't step up and win it for them, in fact he played poorly and missed a couple of big chances.

I don't agree that it means he can't be called the best; I think he was in a bad way last summer, not happy with life and not enjoying his football. Reckon he'd be better if it all happened again this summer.

He's absolutely incredible whatever the weather. Going to try and watch more of him in the next few years before he's gone.

Start tomorrow night with El Classico

Yeah, I get that. It's not like he doesn't perform for his country either. By the time he retires, he will probably be Argentina's top scorer by 10-20 goals.

Messi is Bret Hart. Maradona is Hulk Hogan.

For World Cups see Wrestlemanias.

if messi were from austria or serbia, would that preclude him from being called the best player ever because his national team had almost no chance of ever winning the world cup?