News Thread 2015: Page 96 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

News Thread 2015

jones

Biggus wrote:
And also I make no apology for the Enlightenment, it undoubtedly has been for the better.
I do think Western science technology and values are by far the most superior in the world.

Of course you would, you were born and raised in the West and don't know any other values. To quote a man you greatly admire, "everyone thinks they have the prettiest wife at home".

Qwiss

est wrote:
Qwiss! wrote:
Totally. Which is why we should welcome Muslims to our countries and involve them in education and debate.

That doesn't solve the problem though.

I think it does/can.

Gurgen

jones wrote:
Biggus wrote:
And also I make no apology for the Enlightenment, it undoubtedly has been for the better.
I do think Western science technology and values are by far the most superior in the world.

Of course you would, you were born and raised in the West and don't know any other values. To quote a man you greatly admire, "everyone thinks they have the prettiest wife at home".

So if Western values are so terrible, why are people not staying in countries where they have their own, totally better values?

Kel Varnsen

Segway wrote:
Kel Varnsen wrote:
Of course they are. The western world is superior to the rest of the world on every measurable indicator.

You mean on every capitalist indicator.

Not really. Would you for instance call infant mortality rate a "capitalist indicator"? You have a wide variety of indexes that measure "quality of life" and the western world is consistently at the top.

jones

Gurgen wrote:
jones wrote:
Of course you would, you were born and raised in the West and don't know any other values. To quote a man you greatly admire, "everyone thinks they have the prettiest wife at home".

So if Western values are so terrible, why are people not staying in countries where they have their own, totally better values?

Because when you have to decide between dying of hunger/war and going to another country where your values aren't prevalent you choose the latter. I'm dumbfounded that this is a serious question to be honest.

Gurgen

And the hunger/war is all caused by Western colonial facists right?

And what about the vast majority of immigrants, who aren't dying of hunger or war?

Burnwinter

Gurgen wrote:
We cannot criticise people doing bad things now because Europeans also did bad things in the past. Try to keep up Kel.

The self-appointed custodians of western values have participated in, profited from and endorsed overseas military adventures killing hundreds of thousands of civilians and displacing millions more within the past few years.

The UK led the fabricated arguments for the military intervention in Iraq that mainstream commentators agree resulted in the present emergence of IS as a major political bloc.

But yeah, Enlightenment values. Also, they were going to shoot first with the guns we lied about them having. Also, we did it to protect the civilians who actually ended up dead in vast numbers. Also, human rights! Except in Saudi Arabia because they buy our guns and sell us their oil.

Also, we all agree it's important to bomb Syria, despite every rational observer predicting it will result in greatly increased casualties on all sides. And bung on a couple more proxy wars and profiteering weapons deals on the side.

Watch what Europe does, not what it says.

jones

Gurgen wrote:
And the hunger/war is all caused by Western colonial facists right?

And what about the vast majority of immigrants, who aren't dying of hunger or war?

No, the hunger and war in those countries is obviously caused by the ineptitude of everyone who doesn't follow the Western way of life, nothing to do with the West ruining those countries via colonialism, economic and actual warfare for centuries.

Gurgen

You forgot the Crusades, don't forget the Crusades! 😆

Burnwinter

😆 Whatever you do don't mention the Jamaican proposal regarding reparations for slavery. Too much history involved.

Burnwinter

Gurgen wrote:
You forgot the Crusades, don't forget the Crusades! 😆

-∞ ⟶ 1215 Dark Ages
1215 King John creates civilisation by agreeing to Magna Carta
1215 ⟶ ∞ Europe civilises the world

Gurgen

Burnwinter wrote:
Gurgen wrote:
We cannot criticise people doing bad things now because Europeans also did bad things in the past. Try to keep up Kel.

The self-appointed custodians of western values have participated in, profited from and endorsed overseas military adventures killing hundreds of thousands of civilians and displacing millions more within the past few years.

The UK led the fabricated arguments for the military intervention in Iraq that mainstream commentators agree resulted in the present emergence of IS as a major political bloc.

No-one is disputing that the idiotic invasion of Iraq contributed in a major way to regional instability and created a vacuum in which groups like IS could thrive. However, people remain responsible for their own actions. Obama is not the one beheading people in Iraq or exterminating Yezidis. There is a good argument to be made that the Franco-German tensions that eventually led to the first and second world war were caused in a major way by Napoleon's invasion of Russia, but I don't think you can argue that Napoleon caused the Holocaust. Neither did the treaty of Versailles. By the way, the countries that invaded Iraq admitted later that it was a mistake. I don't see Al-Baghdadi doing something similar any time soon.

This is not a discussion on foreign policy, but a discussion on where people can have the best lives and why. In Western Europe, you can generally think what you want, do what you want and the state will take care of you if you can't work. Hell, you'll even have scores of hippies like yourself defending your homophobic, sexist and racist ideas just because that's your 'culture'. That's why people come here.

Kel Varnsen

Gurgen wrote:
Burnwinter wrote:
The self-appointed custodians of western values have participated in, profited from and endorsed overseas military adventures killing hundreds of thousands of civilians and displacing millions more within the past few years.

The UK led the fabricated arguments for the military intervention in Iraq that mainstream commentators agree resulted in the present emergence of IS as a major political bloc.

No-one is disputing that the idiotic invasion of Iraq contributed in a major way to regional instability and created a vacuum in which groups like IS could thrive. However, people remain responsible for their own actions.

This is one of the two main problems of the modern, liberal left. They see people as a product of their environment, almost without any sense of autonomy. The other problem is that they look at every situation through the lens of "power". Who has it, who hasn't it; one side is oppressed and the other side is the oppressor.

y va marquer

Looking at every situation through the lens of power: that could equally apply to the conservative right?

In a general sense I reckon one of the major problems in any discussion on topics such as religion is that people identify with (or are identified as) either right or left.
They cease to question what's prescribed for them to think, they don't listen in good faith to opinions that don't toe the hard line - ultimately exchanges descend into conflict.

Biggus

jones wrote:
Biggus wrote:
And also I make no apology for the Enlightenment, it undoubtedly has been for the better.
I do think Western science technology and values are by far the most superior in the world.

Of course you would, you were born and raised in the West and don't know any other values. To quote a man you greatly admire, "everyone thinks they have the prettiest wife at home".

You forgot to quote the rest of my post, my wife and son owe their lives to western medical science so from my point of view whatever crimes you want to lay at the feet of western technology was worth it.

Biggus

Burnwinter wrote:
Gurgen wrote:
You forgot the Crusades, don't forget the Crusades! 😆

-∞ ⟶ 1215 Dark Ages
1215 King John creates civilisation by agreeing to Magna Carta
1215 ⟶ ∞ Europe civilises the world

Hmm wonder what the Mongols were up to circa 1215.

Biggus

y va marquer wrote:
Looking at every situation through the lens of power: that could equally apply to the conservative right?

In a general sense I reckon one of the major problems in any discussion on topics such as religion is that people identify with (or are identified as) either right or left.
They cease to question what's prescribed for them to think, they don't listen in good faith to opinions that don't toe the hard line - ultimately exchanges descend into conflict.

Well thats why I try to escape being pigeon-holed Y, people change of course as they get older and their stake in society increases.

What about you, did you ever fancy joining Femen?

Qwiss

y va marquer wrote:
Looking at every situation through the lens of power: that could equally apply to the conservative right?

In a general sense I reckon one of the major problems in any discussion on topics such as religion is that people identify with (or are identified as) either right or left.
They cease to question what's prescribed for them to think, they don't listen in good faith to opinions that don't toe the hard line - ultimately exchanges descend into conflict.

Seems to be a recent problem too, we used to have plenty of good lively debate here where people on different sides were able to make their points and people would respond to the points made. You could actually enjoy reading Kel and Burnsy going at it for a while.

jones

That's a problem most forums (and relationships/marriages) have, after a while you get to know each other too well and you get bored and don't bother anymore. I think this forum is a lot more balanced than others though, if you went to A-M there's basically just one point of view on most topics since just a few posters are able to properly articulate themselves (and that's aside from the fact they still don't have an OT section).

Qwiss

They have an OT section its just not available to everyone.

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