News Thread 2015: Page 91 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

News Thread 2015

Biggus

Wouldn't also get refugee status if you were stateless?

Gurgen

Sure you would, but you would need to prove that. "I don't have a passport" usually doesn't count. The people buying those passports are obviously not stateless.

Biggus

Err if they searched your plastic bag which contained your entire earthly possessions wouldn't they believe you?

lorddulaarsenal

Do many people side with ISIS to avoid the threat?

Burnwinter

Gurgen wrote:
It gets you refugee status when you apply for asylum in the EU? 😆

Please tell me you were kidding.

What's the point of all this though? There's a due process for asylum claims that establishes as far as possible their legitimacy. Unless you think asylum claimants should be denied that due process it's a kind of concern trolling.

At the moment you've got all eight combinations of "genuine" refugee and "economic migrant", Syrian and non-Syrian, and authentic and fake passport arriving in Europe. There are certainly people in danger fleeing Syria who are unable to obtain a legitimate passport and so save up to purchase a fake one. This is normal: Syria's a lethal war zone where the rule of law is contested.

Gurgen

Burnwinter wrote:
Gurgen wrote:
It gets you refugee status when you apply for asylum in the EU? 😆

Please tell me you were kidding.

What's the point of all this though? There's a due process for asylum claims that establishes as far as possible their legitimacy.

There is also an entire industry geared towards bypassing that due process, which is not very hard to do.

Merely trying to illustrate the madness of an immigration system based solely on "refugee status", which not only (understandably) encourages people to do whatever it takes to paint themselves with the right brush but also undermines the acceptance of immigrants in host countries.

Burnwinter

You're a lawyer aren't you?

Don't you think one might as well say that defence lawyers work in an "entire industry geared towards bypassing criminal punishment", or that accountants work in "an entire industry geared towards stealing tax from the public"?

All these contradictory premises about the right and wrong of migration tend inexorably to resolve in the same conclusion. There's no foundational logic, only ideology submerged in technocracy.

If a person has money or valuable skills (or a mobile phone), then they must be too rich to be a refugee. If they're broke or unskilled, they're an economic burden even if they are a genuine refugee. Those fleeing fanaticism are branded a security risk due to the fanaticism they're imagined to possess. If they can't speak the language, they won't integrate. If they can speak the language, they might take one of our jobs.

Ultimately the phobic will find a way to undermine the acceptance of anyone they feel like.

lorddulaarsenal

Wonder how many ISIS sleepers have made their way in European nations under the guise of "asylum"

Burnwinter

My guess would be fewer than you've got like this bloke » http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11883225/Family-of-ginger-terrorist-who-plotted-to-put-Prince-Harry-on-throne-praised-for-alerting-police.html

Gurgen

Burnwinter wrote:
You're a lawyer aren't you?

Don't you think one might as well say that defence lawyers work in an "entire industry geared towards bypassing criminal punishment", or that accountants work in "an entire industry geared towards stealing tax from the public"?

All these contradictory premises about the right and wrong of migration tend inexorably to resolve in the same conclusion. There's no foundational logic, only ideology submerged in technocracy.

If a person has money or valuable skills (or a mobile phone), then they must be too rich to be a refugee. If they're broke or unskilled, they're an economic burden even if they are a genuine refugee. Those fleeing fanaticism are branded a security risk due to the fanaticism they're imagined to possess. If they can't speak the language, they won't integrate. If they can speak the language, they might take one of our jobs.

Ultimately the phobic will find a way to undermine the acceptance of anyone they feel like.

Nope, I would say that defence lawyers work in an industry geared towards making sure that the state does not abuse the procedural safeguards put in place for defendants, which sometimes indeed involves the necessary evil of bypassing criminal punishment.

I have no idea how the rest of your post relates to anything I wrote, but for the record: I am not saying that migration is wrong. Quite to the contrary. I am merely saying that our immigration system is idiotic and encourages not only large scale fraud and slave trade, but also xenophobia.

Burnwinter

Gurgen wrote:
Nope, I would say that defence lawyers work in an industry geared towards making sure that the state does not abuse the procedural safeguards put in place for defendants, which sometimes indeed involves the necessary evil of bypassing criminal punishment.

Well, clearly the procedural safeguards in place for asylum claimants also sometimes involve the necessary evil of granting asylum to a fraudulent claim.

Gurgen wrote:
I have no idea how the rest of your post relates to anything I wrote, but for the record: I am not saying that migration is wrong. Quite to the contrary. I am merely saying that our immigration system is idiotic and encourages not only large scale fraud and slave trade, but also xenophobia.

Fair enough—don't take it personally then, no offence meant. The people-smuggling industry and the attendant industries of document fraud etc exist because someone has decided border control is important enough for it to be worth creating them. Once you have prohibition, you get bootleggers.

jones

lagos wrote:
I was in Dubai a few days a go and met a Syrian lady at the counter at a watch store in the mall and we made small talk about Syria and the refugee situation. She says she goes and comes from Syria at will and she was in Damascus "only 10 days ago". She says whenever she talks to her family back home, they always say what part of Damascus are these people reporting about?

I personally knew three people who died in Damascus in the last twelve months and another three whose current whereabouts are unknown but were last heard of in the capital, and I'm not exactly part or fond of the Western press. And that's just Damascus, last I heard Aleppo was way worse.

arsedocmd

I have people in my medical residency program from Syria, whose family apparently is stuck now and cannot get out of even damascus, which is apparently a relatively safe place in syria.
One of them had his cousin disappeared all of a sudden just when he was trying to get him out of there.
Maybe your contact through small talk in dubai was on the side of the government lagos? Or something else.

goon

No idea what part of Syria he's from but the wife's work colleague who already lived in the UK but had a pretty wealthy family back there has lost contact with some friends and relatives apparently. You'd have thought the wealthy would find somewhere safe to fall back on.

jones

lagos wrote:
sorry for your loss, not much I can say there as you have a personal connection with the war. I will not go into the veracity of the declared "civilian" figures, those who wish to can read up, either way even 1 life is too much.

I will focus more on the refugeees and the eventual impact on Europe which is the real issue here.

What I do know is if you are a genuine conflict refugee, then the 1st point of safety is all you truly need, when you say you need to get to Britain or say Germany or you go back to Syria, then to me this is more about Economics than safety. If you ask a refugee, he's not going to paint anything other than a picture of total hell where he is coming from because that picture of hell real or imagined is his ticket.

Thanks for the condolences, thankfully not any relatives of mine but as you said no matter which, just one life is already far too much. My point was to demonstrate that even people who have otherwise little connection to that area can confirm the horrible situation over there, media critique is good and well but occasionally there are well respected journalists too who make it into the war zone and out and they all paint a hellish picture.

Regarding your other point - forgive me if I'm wrong but from what I gathered you aren't too bad off financially (especially for African circumstances), but you also very well know the situation of most of your and my countrymen. Given that how is it that you criticise those who try to circumvent a system that not only ruined and to this day ruins our home countries financially and then closes its borders before those who try to escape poverty, but not the system itself? Does it matter whether one dies from a bullet, from phosphor bombs or from hunger, especially when the party which so generously accepts a percentage of those fleeing from it is accountable for all three?

Another thing: I must object to this idea that there's a general consensus of "Germany or back to Syria" - I know people who went through the trouble of going from North Africa to the Turkish-Syrian border to pose as Syrians because there's a bigger chance of being let into the promised land that is Europe than via Spain which patrols the Mediterranean looking for boats to keel over. Do you really think if someone gave those people the chance to live and create a future that consists of more than living from day to day in any European country they would reject it?

Biggus

Lagos is right, we should direct more anger at Kroenke and the board.

Biggus

Ohhhh what a feeling- Toyota!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-24/koala-gets-caught-in-car-grill-escapes-without-injury/6801570

Burnwinter

lagos wrote:
I was in Dubai a few days a go and met a Syrian lady at the counter at a watch store in the mall and we made small talk about Syria and the refugee situation. She says she goes and comes from Syria at will and she was in Damascus "only 10 days ago". She says whenever she talks to her family back home, they always say what part of Damascus are these people reporting about? I asked her how she found living in Dubai and she says the only reason she prefers Dubai to Syria is being away from extended family and pressures. One's person's story but as someone who knows that what the west reports is often far from the reality on the ground, I'd put more weight on the words of a Syrian than western press or a supposed "refugee" as I know as an African most people who claim to be fleeing persecution are simply economic migrants exploiting loopholes.

Some things struck me watching the BBC reporting were 1) A syrian refugee saying only Syrians should be given assylmum 😆 and a Syrian guy saying Germany or nowhere, that if he cant stay in Germany then he'd rather go back to Syria...if that's the case, Syria can't be that bad can it?

That sounds a bit like the take you get from media outlets that are more sympathetic to the Assad government, like this one:

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/08/turkey-syria-other-shatters-stereotypes-residents-defy-image.html

If anyone is interested in the Syrian conflict and the mess of geopolitical policy around it, this is one of the most in depth and balanced articles I've read:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n07/peter-neumann/suspects-into-collaborators

Burnwinter

Um …

arsedocmd

That's from a few months ago?

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