Ramsey back to superhero mode: Page 33 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Ramsey back to superhero mode

innervisionscm

We don't have a backup for Ramsey in the squad. Wilshere isn't it. It's gonna cost us if he's out for serious time.

Claudius

We will just have to start with Ozil at 10, Cazorla at 8 and Coq in the back. Nothing else makes sense at this point. Flamini is not an option.

Burnwinter

Claudius wrote:
Coq in the back. Nothing else makes sense at this point.

Seems a bit extreme Claud, but desperate times ...

Claudius

The alternative is Flamini, my friend

Burnwinter

y va marquer wrote:
So: what we understand clearly In the present, Is a composite of facts that existed prior to us gaining the understanding?

Sort of. Although it doesn't really work unless you subscribe to a scientific theory of jinxing. Which most of us do.

yuv

Disagree on both players (though they were both merely used as examples, nothing important about them individually). Ramsey's game is not "sloppy" as default mode (which he might overcome "only in a purple patch"). The part of it that sounds familiar is because it goes parallel to the more reasonable description: he has a high standard, or ideal, on which he models his game, and he's fearless. The opposite of the purple patch claim is true (which actually explains why it would sometimes seem like "he's sloppy by default"): he needs to be on his game to make that high standard work, and when it fails it does so spectacularly. If that sounds to you like the same thing, we think differently.

Coq didn't get chances? either not following, or a short memory (or low interest in fringe players?) Coq's chances, false dawns and loans is a saga matched by few. He's been around for a long time, and to some a great disappointment till recently (cos you could see he was talented. Question was - what is holding him back overtime he gets a chance?). And then - this.

Which brings me to the same conclusion: can never really predict when it all falls into place, but rash to exclude it could happen when there's enough in there as a base.

yuv

I actually do agree with you there is a line to be drawn - can't go Aliadiere each time.

But as for the core issue - I see things differently.

Ramsey's been here 7 years and was mostly shite (and therefore, you'd have us think, he is also expected to be so in the future)? So - what is it exactly that happened last year? a divine intervention? a purple patch, by the end of which Cinderella went back to rugs for good? and what about yesterday? what about injuries? what about that injury (and a 3 year recuperation trail give or take)?

This is not against "I rate consistency" point - sure, I rate consistency as well. This is about individual players development path and excluding surprises, late bloomers, etc.

See again Coq: came from nowhere just days ago, yet in the last 3 months he's as consistent as can be (yes, we do need to look at it in years, not months. Still this amazing phenomenon - from thin air to regular 7-8 performances week in week out is telling).

Again - these are but examples. The main issue is - do you believe, and do you leave room for - a player clicking after a long search time, hatching after a long incubation, or you look at them all via "factor 1,2,3 at level x, indicates that" is the universal formula. If so (the narrow choice): dump Jack asap? Chez? and surely Welbeck, and why on earth were we wasting time on the likes of the corporal, and Theo. Theo! 🙂

EDIT: is it me, or this was moved here from elsewhere (and why? Because Ramsey's the example?)

Burnwinter

Ramsey's form has gone up and down a bit, but he's rarely a real liability because his work rate doesn't drop and he covers the pitch and knows his responsibilities.

Sometimes it'd be good if he could play a bit more conservatively when he's having an off day, but not if it means going half-hearted when he's in man-god mode …

yuv

lagos wrote:
What we have before us are choices, you can make rational logical decisions based on likelihoods and probabilities and past records or you can make decisions based on emotion and hope. The trend is the trend until it changes and you can't make a decision based on a trend that doesn't exist.

If there ever was a clearer example of a false dichotomy. Of course, if this dichotomy was true, it would show your position to be more stable (or "rational", or "logical" like holders of such stances like telling themselves). Is it only rational to act/predict/sign/plan the team according to performance from t1 to t2? is everything else just "based on emotion", or optimism or what have you? that is ridiculous. the variables in players development are infinite, and limiting them in such a way, to me, equals being, well - limited. It's self crippling for no reason.

Why was Wenger so good at unravelling jewels? were all the others not experienced in football - or perhaps he allowed himself a tad more flexibility?
why did some of us dare persist with Ramsey although it was clear as day he was "a dud"? were we being "emotional and irrational"? or perhaps your definition of rational, in the strict confines of narrow logic - the amount of induction in your posts sits well with it (or does it?) - is actually not so rational?

Anyway, yeah, let's leave it be. It's found it's way to the Ramsey thread, and had not much to do with the dude. (or dud? 🙂 )

goon

Your stance on Ramsey is so bizarre. At least with Theo I can, if I squint my eyes, see your point of view.

Mirth

He was consistently one of our better performers for about 18 months till the end of last season - with a few months of being absolutely world class. This season he's been injured and unfit for most of the season and therefore hasn't been at his best - it happens.

And Ramsey is not injury prone either - since his leg break, his fitness has been remarkable.

ChiliPalmer

lagos wrote:
what's so hard, he is inconsistent and unreliable, until he proves otherwise

He is. Unlike the consistent Fabregas, who has been consistenly anonymous for the past 4 months.. A player we should've bought according to you if I'm not mistaken.

goon

lagos wrote:
what's so hard, he is inconsistent and unreliable, until he proves otherwise. when the trend changes, my opinion will change. He was consistently great for a season but even then he was predictably injured for a spell when we realy needed him and then he went back to his prior ways.

What is baffling is why people can't see beyond the the spectacular, consistency is what wins you league titles, not your ability to be unplayable in a few games when you are fit.

18 months is not "a few games when you are fit".

Furthermore, when he's not at his peak, he still contributes more than enough, he's not a liability by any stretch of the imagination. Your description fits Jack not Ramsay.

Burnwinter

Chili and Lagos, do us a favour and lower the pitch a bit. No need for personal animosity or feuding.

You've both fired off a shot, so I'll moderate the next post that contains an intemperate personal remark. You've been warned.

goon

Come on lagos, using 1 in 7 seasons for a player who's only just turned 24 and had a major leg break is a little disingenuous to say the least. About two years ago at the age of 22 Wenger put him back in his favoured position and he's been putting in consistent performances since. What came before is irrelevant.

goon

Fair enough.

ChiliPalmer

lagos wrote:
Quite frankly I get irritated with people grandstanding and looking for soundbites and scoring cheap points. I am an Arsenal fan and so are you, do you hear me criticize Sanchez? I am simply stating my opinion and you can state yours without the pettiness. We all want the same thing ultimately so please piss off with this nonsense. i really don't have time for this sort of discussions.

It's funny because I agree with most of what you say about him, but you take the hate to another level, where it just becomes weird, so I find myself defending him instead.

Who says you can't criticize Sanchez? Go ahead, do it, he didn't play well yesterday, but Ramsey did, yet we're here anyway. It doesn't make sense.

Rex

My only problem with Ramsey this season is that he for the first few months had his priorities as a central midfielder wrong. He was chasing goals too much, thus neglecting his defensive duties his position warrants. That has, however, been corrected.

Muscle injuries have held him back this season which is infuriating. Those have negatively impacted his chances of having a run in the team, and that is crucial for pretty much all players to perform to the best of their abilities.

Ramsey is a top class player IMO. He is, for me, the player who leads the team more than anyone else. The reason his passing stats are not the best is that he never, ever is merely content going through a game just playing it safe. More than anyone we have, bar Alexis perhaps, he drives the team forward, taking the game to the opposition. Alexis does that too, but his decision making is worse than Ramsey's IMO. Ramsey never hides, he never shies away from the responsibility of finishing when in good positions, and his energy and defensive work is second to none. I don't know what he is like outside the pitch with his team mates, but on the pitch he is the real captain of this side.

With the muscle injuries he has had this season, the manager needs to be careful with him for the remainder of the season. Wenger is to be commended here IMO, because that is exactly what he has done with Ramsey since coming back this time. It is good that we now have enough options to avoid that he plays 3 games on the trot in quick succession for instance.

FEBravo

I think his natural game meshes well with Ozil's and Giroud. He finds the places vacated by Ozil when the latter moves around, and combines well with Giroud, as we've seen yesterday and for the FA Cup final as obvious examples. When Ozil was wide I think it also impacted him a bit, as there was no one in front of him dragging people around other than Giroud.

Burnwinter

If he maintains anywhere near the sort of form we saw yesterday for the remainder of this season, surely this debate will be well and truly done and dusted.

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