Are we naive vs the better teams?: Page 8 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Are we naive vs the better teams?

flobaba

We try to combine with the 7th man

Anzac

I don't think it's any more complicated than our possession short passing style being well enough suited to enable us to beat the lower half of the table, but it's inherently weak/vulnerable against our peers, let alone the elite.

evoh

Short, rapid passing requires 100% precision to within 1 inch. We simply do not have that ability on a regular basis.

We then end up with players beyond the ball and gifting the opponents a run out our defense. Its not rocket science. Man City attack in ones an twos, we flood all sorts forward but not into the box, leaving a Dm and CB as the only players behind the ball. That is criminal away from home and suggest our attacking players can't do a job without overwhelming the opponents in numbers.

FEBravo

I think we are naive in that we think we are better than we are.
The problem is the lack of quality, and it becomes obvious against the top teams.
But we refuse to accept that and adapt accordingly, and pretend we are good enough to play "our game" and take it to anyone, not to mention what "our game" is right now is quite unclear.

Rex

We certainly don't lack in quality. Our 'style' is just mainly crap, and that is down to the manager. He obviously wants his players to play with freedom, and the only ones who seem exempt to that are the CBs and Arteta/Flamini. In a set defense we seem a bit better, but because of this freedom we end up in transition defense waaaay too often, and that is of course because this 'freedom' constantly leaves us with waaaay too many players ahead of the ball at any given time when we attack.

Qwiss

I think its more complicated than us just having too many players ahead of the ball. If that was really the problem we'd swamp teams in the final 3rd and score a lot more goals. I've said it before but Wenger some how has a system that seems to leave us with not enough bodies forward when we attack yet we're easily caught on the counter. Its a bizarre system that leaves us with no real strength at either end of the pitch.

Irishgunner

Our problem is a lack of movement, nobody exploits space, nobody runs in behind, they all just stand still waiting to play a stupid 1-2 on the edge of the box.

Qwiss

Thats not the case as much now with Welbeck and Sanchez. Even Ozil likes to exploit space, and Jack for that matter.

Rex

We don't transition the ball quick enough from defense to attack, and that is the root cause why we end up with too many players ahead of the ball, and the movement is poor and ineffective because we end up mostly playing against a set defense which is strong in numbers.

Another real problem is that for all the possession we have, we don't end very many attacks with an attempt at goal. Even a poor attempt towards goal has the advantage that it ends a phase of play, which in turn always gives our boys time to fall back and regroup.

Rex

What I mean is this - it is better to play the high risk, longer ball early and lose possession more that way. When losing the ball like that, a team always has plenty of bodies in a position ready to defend. Instead, we most of the time transition the ball slowly, looking to play safe passes, and save our high risk ball for when we have too many players ahead of the ball. It is extremely stupid IMO.

Tactics

qs! wrote:
I think its more complicated than us just having too many players ahead of the ball. If that was really the problem we'd swamp teams in the final 3rd and score a lot more goals. I've said it before but Wenger some how has a system that seems to leave us with not enough bodies forward when we attack yet we're easily caught on the counter. Its a bizarre system that leaves us with no real strength at either end of the pitch.

That is if you assume the opposition don't get enough bodies back to counter our numbers in their half, but we all know that is not the case. Teams get enough bodies back and there's mostly no space for us to play. All we do is uselessly pass the ball infront of them at walking pace looking eye of the needle pass. And what happens when we lose the ball? They have huge space to run into and in that space we usually have 2 of the slowest players ever (Merte and Arteta) who are expected to stop speed merchants in an open space (how stupid is that?). Kos is mostly the only one with recovery pace at the back and we are mostly screwed when he's beaten. There's only so much one man can do.

Anzac

qs! wrote:
Thats not the case as much now with Welbeck and Sanchez. Even Ozil likes to exploit space, and Jack for that matter.

Problem for the likes of Welbeck, Sanchez and Ozil is they can not exploit space if they don't get the ball until outside the area after the CMs bring it forward at feet.

Anzac

I really liked how Germany regrouped and reset their attack at the WC.
Play breaks down one side so they go backwards to the FB, then inside through the 2 CBs to the other flank, and then look to promote the ball via passing triangles until they are able to get in behind the defence and turn them, and then they play a quick pass to the top of the D for their playmaker and midfield runners.
Reminded me of what we saw in our play in 2007-08.

Qwiss

Anzac wrote:
qs! wrote:
Thats not the case as much now with Welbeck and Sanchez. Even Ozil likes to exploit space, and Jack for that matter.

Problem for the likes of Welbeck, Sanchez and Ozil is they can not exploit space if they don't get the ball until outside the area after the CMs bring it forward at feet.

Exactly. Thats our main issue. It takes us so long to got from back to front. The annoying thing is its exactly the opposite of Wengers successful sides. Surely he can see that we don't move quickly enough from back to front?

Bold Tone

Every team, now (even Leicester & Besiktas), plays the same way against us by targeting Merte's poor distribution by simply marking Kos' side of the pitch.
We then struggle to get the ball out of defence and it often depends on Wilshere and Ramsey having to go back there to help.
This results in an immediate disconnect between the midfield and attack if the forwards don't also drop back.
If they do, they are in no position to hurt the opposition and it allows the opposition FBs to push up and team up with their winger.
Meanwhile, our striker is completely isolated with two CBs and Ozil for company wondering what is this shit?
They are now affected by the holtby/Ozil syndrome of looking like a pearl in a team (Shalke/RM) and dog shite in a rabble (spuds/us).

Qwiss

I see midfielders dropping back to pick up the ball from the centre half as a natural start to most moves. I think our full backs are a bit of an issue too. They too often get into the opposition half and turn backwards, thats not what they should be doing and despite not rating Debuchy as a defender I thought he'd at least solve that problem. He didn't so maybe its as much tactical as it is on him in that regard.

Bold Tone

They realise that Arteta is the root of our attack building and stifling him limits us big time.
Also, i do not think it is a co-incidence that teams no longer target our LB and instead pile in on the sagna-free RB zone.

Tactics

FEBravo wrote:
I think we are naive in that we think we are better than we are.
The problem is the lack of quality, and it becomes obvious against the top teams.
But we refuse to accept that and adapt accordingly, and pretend we are good enough to play "our game" and take it to anyone, not to mention what "our game" is right now is quite unclear.

Spot on.

The only way we could pull that off (ie only focus on our game and still win the big games) is if we were the absolute best, say similar to the level Barca were few season ago. But even that Barca made a lot of adjustments against certain teams, I remember some weird line ups (such as Alves playing in a forward role) against Madrid to confuse Mourinho. As I mentioned 2 days ago, Bayern pushed Martinez upfront against Dortmund last season and hoofed the ball to him all game long. I also remember them going 3 at the back and playing very deep in one of their encounters.

City the other day dropped Nasri (who is normally a starter for them) and went for 2 direct wingers at out wide to target our adventurous fullbacks. Madrid played very deep against Bayern last season and ripped them to shreds on the counter.

Criminal the way we approach the big games.

Kel Varnsen

Irish gunner wrote:
Our problem is a lack of movement, nobody exploits space, nobody runs in behind, they all just stand still waiting to play a stupid 1-2 on the edge of the box.

It's not just a lack of movement, it is also a lack of "leadership" on the ball from central midfield. Our central midfielders should be able to control the pace of the game, but we look clueless. Ramsey and Wilshere are far too often looking for the vertical option, straight up the pitch.

Clrnc

Bold Tone wrote:
They realise that Arteta is the root of our attack building and stifling him limits us big time.
Also, i do not think it is a co-incidence that teams no longer target our LB and instead pile in on the sagna-free RB zone.

City and Everton targeted our LB. Basically they target the wing Ozil plays.

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