Youth team development: Page 3 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Youth team development

Captain

There are many people without the athletic base to ever reach even a sunday league standard. We've all seen them at school.

y va marquer

Rex wrote:
y va marquer wrote:
I don't agree with that at all.
Some people, even practising 24/7, would lack the co-ordination, balance, reflexes to ever make it to an acceptable technical level.

Have you seen some of the cloggers plying their trade in the PL? What is it, regarding technique, that Ryan Shawcross has that can't be learnt with sufficient training?

You call them cloggers and they are, relative to the Cazorlas, Oscars and Agueros of the PL - but they are still a long way off just being exceptionally well drilled, trained and practiced pub players.

Rex

Captain wrote:
There are many people without the athletic base to ever reach even a sunday league standard. We've all seen them at school.

Ok, yes. I took it too far, and you and Y took it too literal. Not everyone could get to Shawcross' technical level.
In Sweden kids usually start playing organized football at around 6 or 7 years of age. Those still playing at 12 - I'd estimate 7 out 10 have the capacity to get to that level, provided THEY PUT IN THE WORK.
The difference then between those who go on to be able to support themselves from football to the rest is down to mental aspects.

Captain

I disagree greatly.

y va marquer

So do I, and hey I didn't take it too literal Rex, you just weren't all that precise in your original post 🙂

yuv

I think you are both ignoring that he is describing the reality in a specific place: you take those 7 out of 10, they work very hard, and in the end you get... Swedish football 😆

(don't take it too seriously, Rex. BTW, you think Zlatan too is an example of just hard work? 😉 ).

Rex

Technical level guys. All I am saying. What. Shawcross. Can. Do. With. A. Ball.

Zlatan is a top physical specimen, has spent more time with the ball than 99% of top level players and has a footballing brain better than most.

Captain

Yes, we understand english. 😆

yuv

Wait - footballing brain better than most because he trained like mad?
or he was born with that brain? (that would make it, sort of, talent, no?)

Rex

Of course it is talent, which takes me back to where I started; brain more than anything is what separates a pro from a pub player.

Rex

And no, it isn't football specific Yuv...

y va marquer

Rex wrote:
Of course it is talent, which takes me back to where I started; brain more than anything is what separates a pro from a pub player.

No it's not.

yuv

The attempt to shift this as though it is "physique/physical" vs "brain/mental", rather than a more straight forward nature vs nurture (talent vs hard work) is not very successful. What you "prove" with that brain mention is only that (contrary to your earlier claims) talent is extremely important. No matter what those nice 7 out of ten kids would do in terms of hard work, they need that brain/coordination/magic left leg/Santi touch/Zelalem vision - fill in the blank. You need talent.
(to play good football, that is 🙂 ).

Burnwinter

The brain learns the limits of action and coordination from a body that's been tested to the limits of physical expression. In other words, practice.

Rex

Becoming a pro footballer is something loads of kids have hopes of. We all know very few actually make that dream come true. What is it that make all these kids fall short then?

Let us for a second pretend that it is only possible to 'make it' coming through an academy, much like the one at Arsenal. You reach 11-12 and you are still in the academy I'd say it is fair you have eliminated those with physical constraints. What stops the rest from 'making it'? My stance is that is mostly mental issues, not physical.

Burnwinter

Rex wrote:
You reach 11-12 and you are still in the academy I'd say it is fair you have eliminated those with physical constraints.

Nah ... genetic and morphogenetic physical traits obviously continue to play a huge and difficult to foresee role in the development of a physique suitable for professional football in a variety of specialised roles after that stage of life.

Here are some examples: height, muscle fibre, joint flexibility, dominant side, rest heart rate and endurance, metabolism, bone density, build, centre of gravity, long-standing injuries or weaknesses.

All of these traits change considerably during adolescence and there's no absolute way to judge how they will combine to produce an adult individual physically optimised for top tier football.

For instance, players with extraordinary physical traits who are also easily crocked once they reach their full height and muscle mass are quite common - Diaby being one example.

Irishgunner

Rex wrote:
Becoming a pro footballer is something loads of kids have hopes of. We all know very few actually make that dream come true. What is it that make all these kids fall short then?

Let us for a second pretend that it is only possible to 'make it' coming through an academy, much like the one at Arsenal. You reach 11-12 and you are still in the academy I'd say it is fair you have eliminated those with physical constraints. What stops the rest from 'making it'? My stance is that is mostly mental issues, not physical.

People can make remarkable physical changes in their late teens and early twenties, Bale and Ronaldo are two examples off the top of my head.

Wenger has said that technique is "locked in" fairly young, that you won't progress much after a certain age and that a certain baseline is required. Physical attributes on the other hand can grow at very different times and rates for different players.

Anyway, to become a professional footballer I think that you need good mentals, good technicals, or good mentals. Any of the three will do. The top footballers usually excel in two of these areas.

Captain

When they excel in good mentals and good mentals, are they proper mental?

Burnwinter

😆 This now comes full circle to Ryan Shawcross.

Rex

Well, I have seen it first hand and experienced it. As a 17 and 18 year old I was playing in one of these academies for a club that was newly promoted to the top Swedish division. I trained quite a lot with the first team too. On the ball I was not worse than the majority of the first team I can tell you that, though I lacked physically of course in many respects. The main difference was time. That is, the time it takes to scan the surroundings and act accordingly. I could not do it fast enough, and that cannot be improved on in any significant way IMO.

Now, this was Sweden. You take that to a decent European level and the pace of the game is a lot faster still. Time IS the of the essence. Those whose brains are not fast enough to process what is going on around them have no place in the modern game and are ruthlessly cut along the way, unless you have some other certain outstanding trait.

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