Kroenke/Gazidis/Wenger out!: Page 126 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

Kroenke/Gazidis/Wenger out!

Captain

Maybe Jazz was a bit extreme but the common theme in Mourinho's career is that he provides short term success before pissing off half of his employers and employees.

As to Real Madrid, Pellegrini had already done the hard work blending what was pretty much an entirely new set of players and unshackling Madrid from their self imposed 'dependency' on a core of players who simply weren't good enough anymore and all while being persistently undermined by the madrid press and those above him. He wasn't Perez's man and it showed from day one. 96 points was an outstanding return that year.

Mourinho, for his part, finished the job and all due credit to him for winning the league and adapting his philosophy accordingly. It was a short lived adaption though, as it was at Chelsea.

Nobody dismisses Mourinho's ability to win trophies, but the shit that he carries with him has already cost him his job twice and it will again in the future and really he is just a very unpleasant, attention seeker that many people want no association with.

Clrnc

Actually Pellegrini is really good, he has made ordinary sides look very good through his career and was unfairly sacked at Madrid.

He has done well with Riverplate, Villarreal and Malaga

JazzG

Claudius wrote:
Jazz, wow.
Mourinho comes with a lot of undignified baggage, but your analysis of the man is dead wrong. He's a winner. Wins in every country he goes to. Wins in Europe.

I'm in two minds about him as an Arsenal manager though. On the one hand, he would almost certainly end the trophy drought that Wenger has become comfortable with. On the other hand, he'd leave after 3 years and we would have to recover from his final year of in-fighting, skirmishes with the press, etc.

His achievements at Porto I rate, every other club he has walked into with millions (hundreds of millions in some cases) and won with them. People put down Pep because he walked into a club which had a fantastic set of players yet I swear the way people go on about Mourinho you would think each club he has gone to he has built from the ground up.

He wouldn't win trophies here without money. Then like you said he leaves clubs not always in the best of shape, he has timed his exit at Chelsea and Inter very well. He'll probably win something with R.Madrid this summer and walk out again.

Burnwinter wrote:
Don't mean to get all Biggusian on you, but it's blind sophistry to dismiss Mourinho being hired to beat one of history's greatest sides featuring arguably the greatest club player and goalscorer of all time, and doing it, on the basis of points totals in different seasons.

Mourinho's toxic, probably, but Madrid is an equally toxic environment, and so is Chelsea.

It's open to debate whether a win at all costs mentality is an unalloyed good. But it's indisputable that at Arsenal our board and manager are happy to refuse the costs of victory with one hand while patting ourselves on the back for our sensible restraint with the other.

He walked into a club who has a player who is not far off Messi at all. Barca had an injury crisis at last season with Villa, Puyol, Pique & Abidal missing large chunks of the season. Had those guys been around all season imo they would of won the title.

He walked into Chelsea after Ranieri had laid the foundations for him they had just finished behind us in the league when Mourinho took over and spent big, he walked into Inter after Mancini had won 3 Serie a titles and there again he spent big and went to R.Madrid who had finished 3 points behind Barca in the league & again spent a fair bit of money. Since leaving Porto he has taken over clubs with very expensively assembled squads who have been at worst 2nd in the league when he took over and then spent a lot of money and won them the league title.

Look the guy is a fantastic manager but I wish people would stop going on about him as if he is a man who works miracles. Fair play to him because spending money doesn't always equate to success. But he is a very unpleasant man, has dragged his own and clubs reputation down the gutter and has no problems doing so. Wouldn't want the man at this club at all, I'm a strong believer in long term stability and success over short term success.

The foundations at this club are sound, Arsenal will still be one of the top clubs in this country in 20 years time but I am not so sure Chelsea or Man City will be, I can live with that. I can't say I'm too happy with the decisions being taken at the moment because it is hurting us short term but in the long term this club will be fine. All in my opinion of course....

Claudius

JazzG, there is a talent market here. He's a top manager and big clubs want him. Don't hate on the man because he isn't being shopped by his agents to the likes of Lazio and Schalke. He's going to the top teams because they recognize that he is amongst the best and he will bring trophies. He made Chelsea relevant, he got Inter over Mancini's Champs League hump and he won La Liga at a time that Barca were threatening to be the bestest soccer team that ever kicked a football. Recognize game, my man.

Qwiss

Chelsea are relevant because of the money they spent. Its like claiming Mancini made City relevant. Its simply not true. Both went to those clubs because they were already relevant.

goon

He made Chelsea relevant? I think Roman might have something to say about that. He was just one of the 20 odd personnel brought in for half a billion to make them relevant.

dreamlord

otfgoon wrote:
But tactically I think he's simply above average, he does not get the best out of the 11 players on the pitch and he's actually very one dimensional. It's effectiven with the right players and the right circumstances but its nothing more.

What? You only have to see some of his CL matches against big teams to see that his tactics bring results, which means they're getting the best out the players. As for it being effective only with the right players, why does he win every where he goes? It's not like he's had Drogba playing for him at Madrid.

Biggus

Claudius wrote:
I'm in two minds about him as an Arsenal manager though. On the one hand, he would almost certainly end the trophy drought that Wenger has become comfortable with. On the other hand, he'd leave after 3 years and we would have to recover from his final year of in-fighting, skirmishes with the press, etc.

Not like we are now! 😆

Captain wrote:
Mourinho, for his part, finished the job and all due credit to him for winning the league and adapting his philosophy accordingly. It was a short lived adaption though, as it was at Chelsea.

But every adaptation is short lived Capi, Wenger was initially successful with new methods until he was found out thats the story of evolution, adapt and innovate or go extinct.

JazzG wrote:
Look the guy is a fantastic manager but I wish people would stop going on about him as if he is a man who works miracles. Fair play to him because spending money doesn't always equate to success. But he is a very unpleasant man, has dragged his own and clubs reputation down the gutter and has no problems doing so. Wouldn't want the man at this club at all, I'm a strong believer in long term stability and success over short term success.

Thought you were talking about Wenger there for a minute. 😆

As regards long term stability over short term success- Theres a line in a Woody Allen film where Woody states that "with sex quality is definitely better than quantity- however if it drops below once every three months you should have that looked into."

Captain

Biggus wrote:
Captain wrote:
Mourinho, for his part, finished the job and all due credit to him for winning the league and adapting his philosophy accordingly. It was a short lived adaption though, as it was at Chelsea.

But every adaptation is short lived Capi, Wenger was initially successful with new methods until he was found out thats the story of evolution, adapt and innovate or go extinct.

To be precise, Mourinho fell back into his aggressive character after it appeared that he had learned some humility from his first season at Madrid. Adaption was the wrong word.

As regards Mourinho, he is a top head coach but he is a poor manager and wouldn't fit here or at any club with a similar hierarchy.

goon

You mean the sort of tactics that smaller sides employ against us? It works for them too and they don't have one of the most expensive squads assembled on the planet. Since becoming Chelsea manager 9 years ago he's consistently had a squad that's been among the best 2-3 in Europe and yet has one CL final/win to show for it. Nothing to be ashamed of, but hardly warrants the tactical genius hype he gets and certainly can't say 'it gets results'. It got one result.

JazzG

Claudius wrote:
JazzG, there is a talent market here. He's a top manager and big clubs want him. Don't hate on the man because he isn't being shopped by his agents to the likes of Lazio and Schalke. He's going to the top teams because they recognize that he is amongst the best and he will bring trophies. He made Chelsea relevant, he got Inter over Mancini's Champs League hump and he won La Liga at a time that Barca were threatening to be the bestest soccer team that ever kicked a football. Recognize game, my man.

I'm not hating on the guy because he got top jobs, I'm just saying he is not as good as people make him out. Some seem to think he would come here and win us a big trophy, like fuck he would. If we are to assume the money Wenger is working with is all the money we have I don't think any manager would do better. The problem we need to address is instead of continuing saving for a rainy day the board need to realise it is fucking pissing down! If Wenger has the money then he needs to realise that.

As for your last point I've addressed that each of those clubs he had huge resources to work with and walked into clubs with already top class squads. They are 16 points Barca this season and this was despite spending like £35mill on Modric. At Chelsea towards the end because he wasn't getting a £100mill transfer kitty he was throwing a wobbly and Roman told him to fuck off. That is where a lot of his problems happened.

Biggus wrote:
Thought you were talking about Wenger there for a minute. 😆

😉

Klaus

otfgoon wrote:
You mean the sort of tactics that smaller sides employ against us? It works for them too and they don't have one of the most expensive squads assembled on the planet. Since becoming Chelsea manager 9 years ago he's consistently had a squad that's been among the best 2-3 in Europe and yet has one CL final/win to show for it. Nothing to be ashamed of, but hardly warrants the tactical genius hype he gets and certainly can't say 'it gets results'. It got one result.

One league title in three years with the most expensive squad in the world too.

Pellegrini, who for some reason is considered a flop, took more points during his one season in Real Madrid than any manager had ever done in the history of the club up until that point.

**Edited

Captain

(except for Mourinho)

Biggus

Captain wrote:
As regards Mourinho, he is a top head coach but he is a poor manager and wouldn't fit here or at any club with a similar hierarchy.

I agree, theres no way in hell that our stiffs would hire him.
But it's a funny old game, who would have thought di Matteo would be sacked after winning the FA cup and CL and replaced with Al from Toy Story.

Gazza M

wenger route

Ray

Mourinho and usmanov in wenger and Kroenke out. That would bring success even if bring back the winning mentality.

Timbob

I would put money on Wenger leaving this summer. He'll walk.

goon

I hope so.

Burnwinter

What if he does? It'll be a short relief to watch someone else melt down on the touchline for a while.

We're several seasons away, at minimum, from having a competitive squad, if the investment comes, which it won't. We're in the wilderness.

lorddulaarsenal

First things first. Sort out the bloody defence

Put dreams of jovetic, cavani, or villa on hold and spunk the lot on competent physical defenders who can pass

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