We fucking win the Prize™ 2013-14: Page 135 - The Arsenal discussion forum and community: One More in the Tolly

We fucking win the Prize™ 2013-14

Rex

That is just wrong IMO, and even on this forum you will find that you are in the minority with that view. Winning this league is never 'like a 5 yard tap-in'.

Us winning it all was always just an outside chance. Even with some proper investment in January, it would still only have been an outside chance. The main gripe I, and many with me, have is that Wenger opted to not even go for it when he had a chance in January.

goon

I'm not fussed about the Jan window. I think it's a bit of a false thing to get annoyed about 'not seizing the opportunity', when we should be aiming to win the league every season anyway. It's not like we tripped over and suddenly found ourselves top, we were there on merit and as the season unfold with City and Chelsea continuing to falter, it's pretty clear that it wasn't just because of transitional effect of having a new manager.

With that in mind, the error was clearly made last August.

Biggus

Oh so Liverpool have a better squad than us?
We were leading at the start of the year, if we had a manager who knew how to win tight tactical games against our biggest rivals we would have done it the margins are indeed slim, it was our best chance in 6 years and we won't get another one while that turnip is still here.

Ray

Liverpool have Suarez, put Suarez in our team and we would be 5 points clear at the top.

y va marquer

Biggus wrote:
y va marquer wrote:
The idea that either of them are in a state of instability and upheaval because of Mourinho and Pellegrini being appointed last summer is lame and is disproved by the fact that both are set to finish this season on equal or more points to how they finished last season.

No, the idea that you can plot if team is improving or otherwise simply by comparing points from previous campaigns is simplistic, teams change opposition teams change and circumstances (like Liverpool only having one competition to aim for) change.
It's only by looking at individual clubs current levels of expectation that you can determine if they are underachieving.
Now it's true that no one really knows how all the big 3 sides will be set up going in to next season, but one thing is sure- None of their owners will be satisfied and they will demand improvement.
Then we have the revival of Liverpool to also contend with.

What Wenger has done is equivalent to Giroud fluffing a 5 yd tap in, in a game of few chances.
If you don't feel that then you're in the distinct minority of fans.

I think you're the one with the simplistic take Biggus.
At the beginning of the season you predicted we'd be fourth like everyone else.
There was no great sounds from you that this was our best chance ever.
Then we got to Christmas in a position where it looked like we could be in with a shot and suddenly the masses believed that all we needed was a January signing even though by January we'd lost Ramsey, Theo and Özil was suffering physically.
Even the insanely optimistic would admit that a signing in January who could have immediately prevented us dropping points to Southampton, Liverpool and United was a long shot.
The loss to Liverpool in particular destroyed us and our confidence.
It's far more than the tap-in scenario that you suggest.
This new notion of yours that points on the board at the end of the season are not any kind of benchmark for a team is a bit of a con as far as I'm concerned.

ElGeniodeOviedo

I wouldn't get too fixated on the whole manager situation. Managers don't play, and more often than not the team with the best players win. This might seem contradictory as I think everyone would agree that Liverpool do not have the best squad, but they have been remarkably fortunate in terms of injuries. If Aguero, Hazard, Ramsey etc had been available in the run in things may well have gone far different.

The point isn't that Man City, Chelsea, Utd, Spurs are necessarily going to be better but they will be looking to improve. City will buy an expensive center half, Chelsea will buy an expensive striker, United will buy an expensive midfielder etc. These don't guarantee that they will be better per se, but at least on paper you can bet that their first elevens will be more complete

Rex

It is vastly important that the players believe in what their manager is doing though. At Chelsea, Man City, Everton and Liverpool it is quite clear that the players believe in their manager when he tells them to play a certain way to win a game. When Mourinho changes things up, I certainly think the players believe it will help them win the game.

With our lot, I think all of them believe that Wenger's ideas are good enough for most games, but I am fairly certain there are quite a few who think that his way is not enough to beat the big boys. That is the only explanation I have for our collapses this season.

ElGeniodeOviedo

Rex wrote:
It is vastly important that the players believe in what their manager is doing though. At Chelsea, Man City, Everton and Liverpool it is quite clear that the players believe in their manager when he tells them to play a certain way to win a game. When Mourinho changes things up, I certainly think the players believe it will help them win the game.

With our lot, I think all of them believe that Wenger's ideas are good enough for most games, but I am fairly certain there are quite a few who think that his way is not enough to beat the big boys. That is the only explanation I have for our collapses this season.

Right, I would say that too often we simply attempt to play the same way against the best teams that we do against the poor ones. We're not good enough to keep possession or create opportunities like we do against mid table opposition, and top class players are able to hit us on the break more effectively due to their quality. So I would say the problem is both of a tactical and player-quality issue.

I'm not really too much of an excuses guy either, but its also possible that our fixture list wasn't ideal and that influenced some of these big games as well

Qwiss

Rayman wrote:
Liverpool have Suarez, put Suarez in our team and we would be 5 points clear at the top.

I'm so sick of this argument. Put Ramsey in Liverpools midfield and they'd have won it ages ago, or Kos in their defense or Ozil at number 10, etc, etc

ludovicvanzis

Liverpool were never close to signing any of those.

Biggus

y va marquer wrote:
There was no great sounds from you that this was our best chance ever.
Then we got to Christmas in a position where it looked like we could be in with a shot and suddenly the masses believed that all we needed was a January signing even though by January we'd lost Ramsey, Theo and Özil was suffering physically.
Even the insanely optimistic would admit that a signing in January who could have immediately prevented us dropping points to Southampton, Liverpool and United was a long shot.
The loss to Liverpool in particular destroyed us and our confidence.
It's far more than the tap-in scenario that you suggest.
This new notion of yours that points on the board at the end of the season are not any kind of benchmark for a team is a bit of a con as far as I'm concerned.

I was calling for reinforcements even before Ramsey Ozil and Walcott were injured, and no one knew how long they'd be out except Walcott.
With excellent new signings we should never have dropped so many points to those sides and Utd- Ha they're everyone's bitches this season except ours.
And as you say the loss to Liverpool (which should never have happened devastated us), wisdom is great in hindsight isn't it?

This title was ours to lose and boy did we lose it.

Qwiss

Not signing more players last summer was a massive fuck up. Our early season form made January a second chance, that opportunity was squandered. And it was a big, big opportunity. And yes opportunities aren't gaurantees but wasting opportunities will almost always result in failure. Wenger never even gave us a chance.

Claudius

qs! wrote:
Rayman wrote:
Liverpool have Suarez, put Suarez in our team and we would be 5 points clear at the top.

I'm so sick of this argument. Put Ramsey in Liverpools midfield and they'd have won it ages ago, or Kos in their defense or Ozil at number 10, etc, etc

Lol. In addition, I think this argument completely ignores our ability to concede 5 or 6 goals at a time. Unless Suarez can solve that too. Scorer/tactician/cannibal.

Biggus

qs! wrote:
Rayman wrote:
Liverpool have Suarez, put Suarez in our team and we would be 5 points clear at the top.

I'm so sick of this argument. Put Ramsey in Liverpools midfield and they'd have won it ages ago, or Kos in their defense or Ozil at number 10, etc, etc

Or indeed if Ramsey and Ozil stayed fit and in form we would still be right up there in it.
Is this going to be the new line from the Wenger apologists?
That Liverpool had a much better squad than us, holy fuck. 😆

Rex wrote:
It is vastly important that the players believe in what their manager is doing though. At Chelsea, Man City, Everton and Liverpool it is quite clear that the players believe in their manager when he tells them to play a certain way to win a game. When Mourinho changes things up, I certainly think the players believe it will help them win the game.

With our lot, I think all of them believe that Wenger's ideas are good enough for most games, but I am fairly certain there are quite a few who think that his way is not enough to beat the big boys. That is the only explanation I have for our collapses this season.

Indeed Rex, no way should Utd have been so bad this sesaon, they had plenty of chances to rescue it but only got worse.
It should be clear to everyone that the players just didn't believe in Moyes-
Likewise us.

The managers role as a man motivator is very important, otherwise the ego's take over the dressing room.

Qwiss

Claudius wrote:
qs! wrote:
I'm so sick of this argument. Put Ramsey in Liverpools midfield and they'd have won it ages ago, or Kos in their defense or Ozil at number 10, etc, etc

Lol. In addition, I think this argument completely ignores our ability to concede 5 or 6 goals at a time. Unless Suarez can solve that too. Scorer/tactician/cannibal.

And it ignores that Liverpool beat us in the battle for Suarez last summer. Wenger made his offer but wouldn't push the boat out after it was turned down. His naïveté in the transfer market is one of his biggest failings. Yet people use this Suarez thing as a defence.

Rex

qs! wrote:
Not signing more players last summer was a massive fuck up. Our early season form made January a second chance, that opportunity was squandered. And it was a big, big opportunity. And yes opportunities aren't gaurantees but wasting opportunities will almost always result in failure. Wenger never even gave us a chance.

Pretty much.

Rex

Was interesting hearing Per post Hull. I saw it just a few minutes ago, but right after the game he pointed to where we are hurt over and over - he said that we were in trouble in the first half WHEN WE KEPT GIVING THE BALL AWAY IN MIDFIELD, but were able to NOT do that in the second half.

This is what I mean about players not trusting the manager against top opposition; they aren't blind, and have surely seen that losing the ball in midfield has repeatedly been the main cause of our woes against better teams. I am convinced there are quite a few players who would like us to play slightly differently in those games. I could be all wrong of course, but that is what I think.

Gazza M

much of that had to do with arteta getting back into his groove on the ball. you could tell he'd lost his belief to pick the ball up in his own half with opposition nearby and try to build play, but he grew in confidence as the game went on. that position is so key for us.

dreamlord

Rex wrote:
This is what I mean about players not trusting the manager against top opposition; they aren't blind, and have surely seen that losing the ball in midfield has repeatedly been the main cause of our woes against better teams. I am convinced there are quite a few players who would like us to play slightly differently in those games. I could be all wrong of course, but that is what I think.

They should concentrate on their own job of not giving the ball away rather than wonder about Wenger's. Some of the performances our 'experienced' midfielders put in against Chelsea and Liverpool were shocking. Those defeats were as much on the players as the manager.

Rex

I am not denying that. Even if the manager sets his team up totally wrong, that is no excuse for the players putting in such abject, spineless performances.

However, if it is plain to most Arsenal fans to see that we struggle in the middle of the park when put under real pressure - then I think the players themselves realize this as well. If there is doubt whether they can carry out the task, then I think it is fair to assume that it will impact how they actually manage.

My point is that any manager worth his salt needs to see his team's strong and weak points. We struggled with intense pressure from early on this season - Dortmund twice, Man U away, Man City away and Everton at home for instance. For a manager who prides himself of going through every game in detail - why does he continue to ask his players to play in a way they have proven they struggle with?

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