kamikaze wrote:

asa said running the club responsibly is great, but we factually have the money to spend much more than we have. football clubs are meant to win, and clubs of our stature are meant to win trophies - profit means nothing. wenger and the board need to show more ambition, as we've been a salad bar or a ben foster injury away from wiping out all the transfer profits over this entire period of parsimony. investing more into the first team (responsibly) does not automatically take us down the slippery slope of leeds and rangers to financial ruin - it would just bring us in line with our peers in the CL (inter, bayern, chelsea, etc).

all of which is undeniably true.

Of course it is.
Coombsy, you're just being an apologist to the leeches who have gained control of the club, if they can't inject the funds to make us competitive again what good are they to us fans?
We should orchestrate to get them out and get in other owners who will serve our interests better, and our interests are to see us win things again- not to make excuses for the fucking Walmart parasite and his pet turnip.

Burnwinter wrote:

-a romantic might argue that he should press them for more spending, but that wouldn't be good governance overall.

Heh "romantic".....Is that the new label for those of us who are more concerned about our team winning things than we are about good governance?
Methinks thou couldst do with a bit more romanticism Sir Burnsy, if your patience hasn't run out by now it never will. you're merely making excuses.

I was framing that romanticism in terms of Asa's fairly strongly put view on 'sane' business behaviour.

Is that the new label for those of us who are more concerned about our team winning things than we do about good governance?

There's a difference between being concerned about something happening and having a plan. Thanks for the carefully considered drive-by though.

I haven't been involved in a thread with posts this long since A-M...

We should orchestrate to get them out and get in other owners who will serve our interests better, and our interests are to see us win things again- not to make excuses for the fucking Walmart parasite and his pet turnip.

In principle I agree with this, Biggs, but I'm not alone in wanting "fit and proper" owners, and I do think there's a chance that the advent of the FFP rules may force all clubs to return their focus at least mostly on their legitimate commercial revenues, as opposed to owners willing to piss money away Abramovich or Mansour style.

If I had to pick when we should take a punt and blow a bunch of cash trying to get back to the top of the league, I'd go with 2013-2014, assuming we can build on last season ... sign a couple of stars and have a tilt just in time to renew our shirts deal as profitably as possible.

Oh come on mate, who believes that the FFP rules will even be enforced much less change anything.......

It's rather unclear what will happen, but I wouldn't bet against it just yet. The FFP rules are being phased in relatively slowly and with wiggle room in the form of preexisting contract exclusions, "showing improvement" leeway, and various stages of allowable losses that don't conclude until 2017.

There will be a few loopholes, but then, there will be nothing to say UEFA can't close them over time. They've already made a firm statement about reviewing sponsorship payments and the like to ensure they're "fair market value". The initiative seems to have broad support from clubs, it's not being imposed on them.

It's inconceivable that clubs with the wealth and power of Real, Barcelona and Man Utd would ever let themselves be dictated to by mid ranked clubs like Arsenal who seem the only ones concerned with staying within the rules, to say nothing about the likes of Chelsea and Man city PSG etc who are a law onto themselves......They'll simply take off and form a Euro super-league.

Hey! we might finally win a European cup in whats left in UEFA. 😃

FFP has already started to make a bit of an impact.

Burnwinter wrote:

Oddly enough, I think I agree with you both on most things.

Transfers and squad management:

I don't think Wenger does a bad job of managing the squad, and I don't think he (or he solely) sets transfer expenditure.

I reckon he operates within parameters set by the board and owners - a romantic might argue that he should press them for more spending, but that wouldn't be good governance overall.

We don't have deep pockets to spend on packages like Hazard's season after season. I think we all recognise that.

But all things being equal regarding expenditure, I think there is plenty of evidence to suggest that, as Asa says, the club as a whole has not been performing at a "league best" level signing and developing players. Our scouting network seems to consistently miss good prospects, we've signed more than a few damp squibs, and we've trained up a few as well.

Last summer was an unusually bad one in terms of how poorly organised we were. The management team (and especially Wenger) seemed to harbour many unrealistic views concerning the futures of Cesc and Nasri, and responded late and haphazardly to their departures.

We cost ourselves probably 5-10 points in the first few weeks of the season with that bullshit, and that to me is an unforgiveably poor summer transfer season.

We simply have to do better this time around, but the signs are worrying: there is a cloud of emotional bullshit over Van Persie, who we're trying to re-sign by relying on his loyalty, and we are just as paralysed waiting for our big-spending rivals to play their cards.

Our overall wealth and profile as a club, and what it means:

There's both correlation and the strictest separation between "growth in our revenue streams" and meeting or exceeding supporter expectations of "ambition" and "success". Us becoming a much bigger club would probably see both fulfilled for a while, but those expectations are ultimately only a temporarily attainable emotional goal, a splinter of the larger problem of personal happiness for each fan.

So how do we grow? Asa mentioned "risk and reward", which is an interesting point. "Reward" in football terms is a discontinuous phenomenon. We basically have two tiers of success at the moment:

  • First tier: we consistently qualify for the CL and acquire the associated revenue and profile
  • Second tier: we win major trophies and acquire the associated revenue and profile

Our good fortune has been that there are enough (3.5) CL places granted to the PL for us to consistently qualify despite the presence over time of City, Chelsea and United plus challengers in the PL. If there weren't, or if there were other clubs spending Chelsea/City level money, obviously we would have struggled.

But the status quo is that we are in that first tier.

I think it's fair to say that the commercial rewards for initially making it to the next level of success are slightly nebulous compared to those of our current level. There is no new competition to enter with guaranteed matches and revenue, and the prize money differentials are not game changers.

The spending required to reach that level is considerable in today's transfer market. Can't see any way we can win the PL at the moment without spending hugely on our squad. We would need equivalents of (for example) Mata, Aguero, and Alves and to keep all our current players for starters. We would be making a considerable loss if we spent what we needed to get there, and maintain over a few seasons.

The real reward of reaching that level would be to gradually close the large gap in commercial revenues between us and our established rivals (eg United, Madrid, Barcelona). This would require sustained success, but we have the platform to achieve it in terms of history, location, and basic profile. We're the best and most reputable club in the biggest city in the country that hosts the world's most popular football league: we ought to be massive. All the "intangibles" of our club really couldn't be that much better given our level of success.

What should we do?

Firstly, we should get our scouts, our commercial management and our manager on the mark and keep them there. I think Wenger should go to achieve this. He has stagnated in charge and we need change.

If hypothetically, we're 100m short of the squad we need to challenge convincingly for the PL, but our position is "sustainable" - we can make money while holding on to CL qualification - we could aim to save up that 100m (or 200m, or whatever) and then risk it over 2-3 seasons to get ahead and stay ahead of our current position. If there's an angel investor who's willing to take on the risk for us, so much the better.

Ideally this should happen with a timeliness that allows us to renegotiate our present, low return sponsorship deals from a position of strength.

We probably shouldn't spend more heavily than we need to to sustain CL qualification unless modelling suggests we will, in fact, win a league title. Money spent on players in a season we don't win is money wasted. A climb from 3rd/4th to 2nd is money wasted.

It's implausible to me that there is currently any "optimal" season by season spending level which is both sustainable (ie not greater than our current revenue) and enough to win us major trophies. We would basically be looking at over-spending as a loss leader to (hypothetically) establish ourselves in a different revenue bracket, alongside, say, United, who presently bring in 50-100m / season more than us in commercial revenues.

One could argue, cynically, that even a one-off climb from 3rd to 1st is money wasted. Apart, of course, from the transient emotional benefits to us as fans.

Are we vulnerable? Yes, very. If another big spending club shows up, we're fucked unless FFP can be enforced, which is doubtful. If that happens, it's quite possible our only reliable route back to the top would be to be bought out by a spendthrift tycoon. This means that we cannot afford unlimited patience.

tldr. cliffs?

Timbo wrote:

FFP has already started to make a bit of an impact.

How so Tim?

theres a bit of tldr fever going around. I blame asa tbh. he sets everyone off.

the long essays are so 2004 chaps 😉

Boring days at work lately.

Kel Varnsen wrote:

tldr. cliffs?

  • Wenger and the club are decent with money, but not infallible; last summer transfer season was a disaster, largely due to gutlessness and bad organisation which probably cost us 5-10 points. Obvious cases where our scouts, signings and youth development have failed.

  • To get from regular CL qualification back to winning major trophies we'd need to spend money we don't have. The increases in commercial revenue from having a winning profile would be slow and dependent upon the expenditure required to sustain success for years.

We should:

  • Get rid of Wenger, he's stagnant and change-resistant
  • Acknowledge that the level of spending required to win major trophies isn't compatible with our present day revenue—we need to increase revenue
  • Acknowledge that improving from 3rd/4th to 2nd is pointless: only winning is worthwhile
  • Save our money if we can "sustain" a CL place while doing so, until we have enough for a decisive campaign to jump up to the next tier
  • Act swiftly in the knowledge that another club with Chelsea/City spending money will eject us from the top tier

A précis of my own post then, for simplicity's sake:

there are insufficient funds to compete financially with the clubs above us and Chelsea. However;

there are enough funds to do significantly more with our squad than we have done, and this has been the case from day 1.

simple analysis of the transfer market would suggest that good scouting can overcome to some degree the dis-advantage of not being able or willing to afford players who attract the most significant attention. However, sticking to too rigid a profile for players we'll invest in, coupled with a hyper-conservative and misguided financial policy has prevented us from doing this effectively in recent years.

our financial policy does not reduce our exposure to the risk of financial meltdown as much as we'd like. Short term savings are creating medium-long term exposures.

the business aspect of the club is entirely secondary to me, and most fans.

Arsène Wenger is highly complicit in all of the above, and for that reason alone should move on.

Burnie... Interesting that you think we couldn't challenge for major honours given our current financial model. However:

a) dithering / delays last summer cost us up to 10 points (your supposition)

b) on top of what we did spend, a healthy and substantial profit was made on transfers (my contention)

c) could that extra £20-£25m not have been re-invested to help us close the remaining 9-point gap?

I obviously don't think we'll be dominating the league any time soon, but I don't think we need to be in a position where we so regularly fall out of the running early either.

Stop taking the exorbitant amounts of money the fans give you and not spending it, you fukking fucks!

@Asa Yeah, I reckon those 5-10 dropped points could've been recouped by not starting the season without a settled defence and without Nasri's situation resolved.

However I think we've been fortunate with Van Persie's form and contribution afterward (as you acknowledge). Next season he won't play 38 matches.

I think a successful star signing could make himself felt to the tune of a 5-10 point swing, but that doesn't put us within cooee of the top of the table. We're six full wins behind a City side accused of bottling, that could definitely have been more clinical over the season.

Maybe I'm just a bit despondent at the moment, but the times we've 'competed' in recent years, we really haven't been close.

I think where you and I part ways at the moment is that I don't really see us as being as close to success as a £25-50m outlay on a couple of key players, and I don't see it as rational to spend heavily in our position if we're not expecting to win, from a perspective of making moves that might result in a prolonged revenue increase, with the goal of having a good chance of winning each and every season.

Burnwinter wrote:

I think where you and I part ways at the moment is that I don't really see us as being as close to success as a £25-50m outlay on a couple of key players, and I don't see it as rational to spend heavily in our position if we're not expecting to win, from a perspective of making moves that might result in a prolonged revenue increase, with the goal of having a good chance of winning each and every season.

While I agree that a £50m spend isn't going to see us winning the title I still think we should be spending that money anyway. £25-50m is in no way spending heavily for a club in our position. Just because we aren't Chesea or Man City doesn't make us paupers.

'Course £50million could win us the league, as long as it's spent on the right player(s). Not saying it's reasonable to expect us to win the league every year or anything, but we'd give ourselves a better shot if we spent the money we have. There have been at least 2 seasons in the last 7 when I genuinely think just 1 good player in the right position would have seen us win the bloody thing.

Good posts Asa. Nice that you are back!